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Bwana Nyerere: Mtumishi wa Mungu au Mtawala wa Umma?

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Siasa' started by Ludovick Mwijage, Mar 13, 2010.

  1. Ludovick Mwijage

    Ludovick Mwijage Member

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    Mar 13, 2010
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    BWANA NYERERE: 'MTUMISHI WA MUNGU' AU MTAWALA WA UMMA?

    Akraba wapendwa, wana JF,

    Kuna dhana kwamba yaliyopita si ndwele bali tugange yaliyopo na yajayo. Hata hivyo, dhana hii ni tegemevu kwa maana kwamba, yaliyopita yanakuwa ni ndwele pale tu, yanapoeleweka vyema. Pengine si vibaya tukawa tunakumbushana tulikotoka. Ifuatayo, ni video fupi, kuhusu huko tulikotoka. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24vlNc83EfU"]YouTube- Julius K. Nyerere: Servant of God or Untarnished Tyrant?[/ame]

    N.B. Tafadhali nakili linki hii kwenye browser yako kama haifunguki kama nilivyoituma.

    Ninakutakieni wikendi njema.

    Ludovick Simon Mwijage
    Jagtvej 215B, 3-2
    2100 Copenhagen Ø
    Denmark

    Tel + 45 52 60 71 71
     
  2. Kiranga

    Kiranga JF-Expert Member

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    Ludovick,

    Nimekisoma kitabu chako cha "The Dark Side of Nyerere's Legacy".

    Kazi ya Head of State inherently ina carry requirement ya mtu kuwa tyrant. Kwa hiyo rais asiyeweza kuwa tyrant pale panapotaka tyranny si rais mzuri.Kuna decisions nyingine watu wanaweza kumtetea Nyerere on grounds of National Security although I could dispute this.

    Hata Gaius Caesar mwenyewe pamoja na benevolence yake yote aliyo potray alikuwa tyrant.Hegel, through the eyes of Edmund Wilson, potrayed Caesar as "a fighter and conquerer of his rivals, a destroyer of the constitution of Rome in order to win his own position of supremacy, but what gave him his importance to the world was the fact that he was performing the necessary feat - only possible though autocratic control - of unifying the Roman Empire (Edmund Wilson "To The Finland Station" pp141)

    Ondoa Caesar, weka Nyerere, ondoa Roman Empire, weka The United Republic of Tanzania, and even if you can indict Nyerere, he is vindicated by history in this particular aspect. He is essentially a Tanzanian Caesar.

    The other side of the so called tyranny mtu anakuwa spineless kama babako Kikwete ambaye day in day out watu wanamtest, wanambeep, rais spineless, hawezi hata kutoa decision.

    Kila kitu ni relative, kama unaongelea tyranny ya level ya kina Mao na Stalin then Nyerere ni saint.

    Ukiongelea principles za watu kama kina Gandhi, ambao walijua kuwa kuwa head of state ni lazima uwe tyrant, then Nyerere ni tyrant.

    Sasa kazi kwako, wakazi wa London wanapo point chini, wana point katika direction ile ambayo watu wa The Antipodes kwao ni juu.
     
  3. Ndjabu Da Dude

    Ndjabu Da Dude JF-Expert Member

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    But surely Mr Mwijage, the kind of lofty democratic ideals that you so much espouse (as displayed in your YOUTUBE video monologue) are more or less unattainable in the real world and basically exist only as mere words in academic texts. The pursuit of perfection may be a uniquely human endeavor, but the truth remains that no single human person is ever perfect. You need to get out of the Ivory Tower and get to grips with life in the real world.
     
  4. Waberoya

    Waberoya JF-Expert Member

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    Is it not the common excuse, 'that human are not perfect' how can we determine that this is a result of human imperfection and this is not? Because if so, then all these plunderers of our wealth are also doing so because of human imperfection!??

    Mwijage: Who made us to follow socialism system? because I can guarantee you, ujamaa need dictator-like leaders, because ujamaa is against human nature like selfish etc, so it need a strong leader if not a dictator.

    I am not historian, someone help me, is there any country that followed this socialism had a president who is not dictator?

    I am lso believing that, a failure of socialism in Tz is because Nyerere was not a dictator?

    Did Nyerere know that this system needs a dictator? if he knew this, how much did he 'succeeded' to be a tyrant? if not why he made us to pass through this system?

    Is mind manipulation can be a sign of tyrant? like 'zidumu fikira sahihi za mwenyekiti wa chama'' This saying have caused a lot of damages to Tanzanian; leaders are actually gods in Tanzania
     
  5. Companero

    Companero Platinum Member

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    Inabidi mtafute kitabu cha Limited Choices: The Political Struggle for Socialism in Tanzania . Kinaonesha kuwa ni mara nyingi tu Nyerere alizidiwa nguvu na viongozi wenzake wa Chama. The poor many did not always have his way=s, in fact he rarely had his way absolutely. Ni kweli Katiba ilikuwa inamruhusu kuwa Dikteta. Ila kama alikuwa Dikteta basi alikuwa Benovelent Dictator. That is what we need now, some kind of a Paul Kagame!
     
  6. Kiby

    Kiby JF-Expert Member

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    Kwa mtizamo wangu Nyerere ni vyote viwili yaani ni mtumishi wa umma kwa kuwekwa na Mungu. Maana ni wapi tunapata upambanuzi wa yaliyo mabaya kutoka kwa yaliyo mema? Nani katuambia haya mabaya na haya ni mema na kwa kigezo cha nini? Hivyo ujumla wake ni kwamba hakuna mamlaka iliyojiweka yenyewe ila zote zimewekwa na Mungu na kwa kusudi. Na malipo ya kila mmoja analipa Mungu, mwovu analipwa sawa na uovu wake na mwema analipwa sawa na wema wake na mara nyingi Malipo haya Mungu anayafanya kupitia watu.
     
  7. W

    Watanzania JF-Expert Member

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    Unahubiri dini au siasa? Kama ni dini unampendekeza nani wewe katika ulimwengu huu kuwa mtakatifu?

    Kama ni siasa nchi gani katika ulimwengu huu ambayo kwa mtazamo wako inafuata democrasia na haki za binadamu unavyohubiri?
     
  8. mnyikungu

    mnyikungu JF-Expert Member

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    we! we! weeeeeeeeeeee!Hakuna mamlaka inayowekwa na Mungu,mamlaka zote tumeziweka wenyewe.kwa mtizamo wako hivi hata joseph kon mamlaka anayopigania katumwa naMungu?mamlaka ya samuel doe je?weeeeeeee!
     
  9. Ben Saanane

    Ben Saanane Verified User

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    I agree with you Waberoya!

    But Nyerere could do better than what he did especially on the subject of policy implementation

    He could contain his weakness in appointing incapable leaders to implement and supervise the policy and probably he thought his subordinates are all well imformed

    It's hard to implement socialism.It needs somebody with the ability to bring all bureacracies,government machinery and the entire system in harmony.
     
  10. Mzee Mwanakijiji

    Mzee Mwanakijiji Platinum Member

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    Wengine walimuona Bush kuwa ni Dikteta baada ya kupitisha Patriotic Act.. na leo hii wengine wameanza kumchukia Obama kwa sababu hiyo hiyo.. si mmeona pamoja na kutetea Civilian Courts amejikuta anajipindisha mwenyewe kwenye suala la Khaleed na kutaka apelekwe mahakama za kijeshi?

    Sometimes things are not as black and white as we would like them to be. Hivi hiyo Sheria iliyomfanya Nyerere kuwa Dikteta imeondolewa lini? Hivi ni kitu gani kitamzuia Kikwete leo hii kuwa Dikteta? Halafu ni Dikteta gani duniani ambaye aliamua kuachia madaraka na kukaa zake na shughuli zake kwa amani na hata alipotaka kukutana na wakubwa ilibidi aombe kualikwa. NI dikteta gani ambaye anajaribu kukutana na viongozi wa nchi na anakimbiwa na hana la kufanya..

    Leo hii watu wanaimba wimbo wa Kikwete awe mgombea pekee.. na muda si mrefu wanaweza kufikia mahali wapige kura ya maoni kuondoa ukomo wa Urais.. unadhani atakataliwa? na nani?

    NIpe Rais kama Nyerere anyday... I will let you keep Mwinyi, Mkapa and Kikwete all your lifetime.
     
  11. Mzee Mwanakijiji

    Mzee Mwanakijiji Platinum Member

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    Angepata wapi watu hao wa kusimamia hizo policy miaka michache baada ya Uhuru.. unless kama angekubali kuomba Waingereza na wageni washike nafasi mbalimbali..
    Angewatoa wapi hao capable leaders baada ya Uhuru. Tulipopata uhuru tulikuwa na madaktari wa kitanganyika 2 tu.. sasa kama mtu anasema "angejenga hospitali na kujaza madaktari" hatuna budi kuuliza hao madaktari wangetoka wapi? Mtu akisema sijui angejenga barabara nyingi na majengo ya kisasa.. hatujiulizi hao mainjia angewatoa wapi.. unless tungeomba waingereza wabakie kwa muda zaidi kutuongoza na kutusomesha..

    Hivi unaone Ubepari ulivyo na kazi katika kuujenga? Au unafikiri ni rahisi kujenga Ubepari...? Ni nchi gani ya Kibepari ambayo imeujenga ubepari na miundo mbinu yake kiurahisi. Watu wengine wanafikiria ubepari unajengwa kwa kufuata tu kanuni za Adam Smith na wengine and then bingo.. here we are.. tatizo ni kuwa sisi hatutaki kulipa gharama ya kuujenga ubepari na tunaogopa gharama ya kujenga ujamaa.. angalia China wanavyojenga ukomonisti wao kwa gharama kubwa na Wamarekani hawajaribu kuwabadilisha kuwa mabepari.. bado ni nchi ya chama kimoja with a very strong central govt.. kama Tanzania wakati wa Nyerere..
     
  12. Waberoya

    Waberoya JF-Expert Member

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    Thanks for this input;

    Maswali yangu niliuliza kwenye post ya kwanza sijona mtu akinijibu.

    Umesema post yako kuwa ni gharama sana ku-implement both systems

    Swali langu ni kuwa ; Nyerere was educated at that time anaichukua nchi, na alijua kabisa kwa dunia ya wakati huo nchi nyingi zilizofuata ujamaa, zilihitaji viongozi strong, (strong is not necessary dictator). Matendo ya Nyerere kwa mfano kuwahamisha wakuu wa amshirika ya umma kutoka shirika moja kwenda lingine baada ya kufail walikotoka, au mawaziri au wakuu wa mikoa, yote haya ( kwa mtazamo wangu) yanaonyesha kuwa hakuwa dikteta au strong) alikuwa na tolerance fulani). Kwa nini alichagua system/mfumo wa ujamaa ambao yeye mwenywe hakuwa na uwezo wa kuufuata?

    In other words kwanini hakuwa (strong) 'dictator' kwenye mfumo ambao alijua unahitaji strong leader?? haionyeshi kuwa alifail kabla hajaanza!

    Najua kuna mtu atauliza angefuata siasa gani? maana hatukuweza kuwa mabepari either. So nitamlaumu kuwa kwa nini hakuwa 'dictator'?? Lakini pia ni katika kipindi chake viongozi waliotofautiana naye walipelekwa nje n.k! je huu haukuwa mfano wa udikteta?

    Kuna issue za gods, 'zidumu fikra sahihi za mwenyekiti wa chama' I believe hii ni moja ya sababu ya kuwa na viongozi leo wasiowasikiliza raia, walio miungu watu, wakati yeye Nyerere alionekana mtu wa watu na kutetea watu

    Kuna sura mbili za JKN ambazo sizielewi ambazo zinapeleka maswali yangu kutoegemea upande wowote ule nataka kuzigusa hizo sura kutokana na tunachokiona leo nchini.

    However, in short, I deeply adore Nyerere, but want to explore more about him!
     
  13. Kiby

    Kiby JF-Expert Member

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    Bahati mbaya joseph koni hana mamlaka ya dola. Hata hivyo anawashirika wanaomuunga mkono ila tu amekosa wingi wao na nguvu za kuchukua dola. Mwenye dola pale ni Mseveni na aliichukua kwa mtutu wa bunduki kama anavyotaka kufanya koni. Doe nae hakutofautiana sana na jinsi Museveni alivyochukuwa. Wingi wa watu wanaokuunga mkono kuwepo madarakani ndio wanaoifanya hiyo sauti ya wengi kuwa sauti ya Mungu.
     
  14. Kiranga

    Kiranga JF-Expert Member

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    Don't get me into my "God does not exist" mode.

    I can get real passionate on that one and debunk all the Anselm and Augustine arguments for god.
     
  15. Waberoya

    Waberoya JF-Expert Member

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    Nilifikiri mathread yote yale ya akina maxshimba na x-paster ngau yatabadilisha msimamo wako, kumbe wapi!

    Nadhani itabidi itumike strategy mpya za kukurudisha kundini! strategy zingine huwa zina force kama ilivyomtokea Sauli who later became Paul.


    Yesu anakupenda Kiranga, hata ukimkataa yeye anakupenda tu.
     
  16. MziziMkavu

    MziziMkavu JF-Expert Member

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    [​IMG]


    MAONO YA BW. LUDOVICK!

    BONYEZAHAPAVideos [​IMG]

    UNAKUBALINA NAE KATIKA MTIZAMO HUU WA DEMOCRACY?​

     
  17. Ben Saanane

    Ben Saanane Verified User

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    Thanks,

    I still believe the statesman had a good agenda for our motherland.i'l always respect him for his passionate move favouring majority and honour the reason kwa nini tulipigania uhuru.

    Lakini kabla ya kuanza kutekeleza hiyo plan alifanya kitu kinachoitwa SWOT analysis? ingekuwa ni bora kama angepata wataalamu wa kutoa elimu kwa viongozi wa kada mbalimbali jinsi ya kuisimamia hii sera.


    Hata baada ya kupata hao wataalamu bado hakuna mabadiliko makubwa yaliyoletwa,maanake sidhani kama miaka yote 25 aliyokaa madarakani kama alishindwa kufanya performance evaluation na kuweka new strategy au kuwa flexible angalao kutumia muda wake wa Mwisho kutoa Transition period ya kuwa na planned economy

    ubepari si Rahisi sana kuujenga,na ujama ndo mgumu zaidi.Soviet Union ndo waliopata mafanikio ya ujamaa kwa muda mfupi zaidi i mean 70 years but wao walikuwa na system iliyokua na element za kibepari zaidi.So,hebu tuchambue kuanzia hapa tuone kama from here kama tunaweza kupiga hatua na kufikia mafanikio kama hayo,angalao kuwa taifa lenye nguvu zaidi Afrika kwa muda wa miaka 35 ijayo coz so far we have everything na pia tusisahau hali ya kisiasa na kiuchumi tuliyo nayo sasa ni matunda ya mfumo uliowekwa mizizi na Mwalimu
     
  18. Kinyambiss

    Kinyambiss JF-Expert Member

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    Tanzania does not need a dictator because it always leads to infringements... Hichi ki JF chenu kitakuwa chakwanza kuzimwa... media censorship, mass corruption, extrajudicial killings.. Rwanda is just like Kilimanjaro region, and although their country nas been marred by violence its easy for them to restructure and for someone to control power almost absolutely, tumeone recent dissidents walivyo kimbia nchi.. Ingekuwa kubwa kama Tz kungekuwa na vita tuu trust me, the size ya Rwanda is part of what aids it, asingeweza kuicontrol bila advanced military and security infrastructure..udikteka siosolution..
     
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