Tanzania and Uganda sign rail pact with Chinese firm

Acha porojo,

Tatizo ni kuwa huelewi geo-politics za EAC, wanaoitaka sana hii reli na bandari mpya si Tanzania bali ni Uganda, ...wanataka njia iliyo-SALAMA .
.. kunapokuwa na uchaguzi Kenya huwa wanafanya vurugu hata kung'oa reli na kuzuia usafirishaji wa mizigo kwa Uganda ...
Porojo unazo wew
e unayeamini kuwa TZ hatutaingia gharama kwenye huo
mradi, gharama ziko wazi sana.
Waamini Kenya watapigana kila uchaguzi na Tz waendelee kuchekeana kila uchaguzi?
 
Hii thread ina mjadala mtamu sana, nakuomba tu Gezaulole; tumia lugha nzuri, ni kweli una hoja lakini maneno mengine unayotumia kujibu na kujenga hoja hayapendezi. Yanaweza kumtoa mtu nje ya hoja na akajikuta anajibu 'lugha' unayotumia badala ya hoja husika.
Kuwa muungwana.
 
Hii thread ina mjadala mtamu sana, nakuomba tu Gezaulole; tumia lugha nzuri, ni kweli una hoja lakini maneno mengine unayotumia kujibu na kujenga hoja hayapendezi. Yanaweza kumtoa mtu nje ya hoja na akajikuta anajibu 'lugha' unayotumia badala ya hoja husika.
Kuwa muungwana.

asanta kaka, umenena vema ijapokuwa hisia nazo huwa na akili zake.
 
Hii thread ina mjadala mtamu sana, nakuomba tu Gezaulole; tumia lugha nzuri, ni kweli una hoja lakini maneno mengine unayotumia kujibu na kujenga hoja hayapendezi. Yanaweza kumtoa mtu nje ya hoja na akajikuta anajibu 'lugha' unayotumia badala ya hoja husika.
Kuwa muungwana.
mi ni muungwana ila hawa watu wana syndrome ya kubisha vitu ili mradi ku-discredit anything viable but not theirs (soma hapa https://www.jamiiforums.com/interna...ous-cum-hate-propaganda-against-uganda-2.html)! Kuna thread humu nilianzisha kuhusu swala hili hili na believe me or not hiyo thread ilikuwa article published in the Nationmedia na ukiangalia kulikuwa na misrepresentation of facts mpaka nikashindwa kuelewa kama hao reporters wa nationmedia hawajui geography au kuna agenda behind i.e. bad publicity on the project!
 
Hii thread ina mjadala mtamu sana, nakuomba tu Gezaulole; tumia lugha nzuri, ni kweli una hoja lakini maneno mengine unayotumia kujibu na kujenga hoja hayapendezi. Yanaweza kumtoa mtu nje ya hoja na akajikuta anajibu 'lugha' unayotumia badala ya hoja husika.
Kuwa muungwana.

i like this moderation effort bro; i can see some valid and interesting arguments from both sides of the border; however, we need to contain our tempers a little bit and concentrate on sober discussion of the issue at hand
 
Hodi! Hii ni mara yangu ya kwanza kushiriki mjadala wo wote ndani ya JF (kwa jina langu halisi)!

LET US LOOK AT THE CURRENT SITUATION:
  1. The existing Cental Line is badly utilisied, in need of massive upgrading AND there is already an MoU to extend it to Rwanda and Burundi (via the current Dry Port of Isaka?)
  2. What used to be the extension link from Ruvu Station junction to Tanga Port, Moshi and Arusha (as well as Moshi - Mombasa via Taveta) was discontinued generations ago! I last used that bit when a student in the 1970's!!
  3. The matter at hand is a FEASIBILITY STUDY, and not actual construction - even though it would cost about US $ 450 Million! I wonder where the funds for this study are to come from......
  4. Already conservationists the world over are against plans by the Government of Tanzania to construct a commercial highway linking Arusha and Mara Regions, as it would cut accross a 54KM section in the SERENGETI NATIONAL PARK, specifically in the Great Annual Migration Route between Serengeti National Park (Tanzania) and Maasai Mara Game Reserve (Kenya)
  5. An organisation called ANAW (African Network for Animal Welfare) has petitioned the East African Court of Justice to STOP the Government of Tanzania to go ahead with the Commercial Highway connecting Arusha and Mara Regions from Mto wa Mbu - Loliondo - SERENGETI NATIONAL PARK - Mugumu - Musoma. Instead, the Government should revisit and reconsider alternative options that have been strongly recommended by both local and international communities. The matter is in court, though Tanzania Government has claimed the court has no jurisdiction on the issue, the Presiding Judge (a Tanzania) has declared that contrary to GoT's opinion - it HAS jurisdiction and proceedings will continue! In case the railway project becomes a reality - this would be another legal hurdle against both Tanzania and Uganda Governments!
  6. The railway link in discussion is mainly for freight/cargo purposes - and NOT local communities' passenger needs. How are the people in the vicinities going to benefit from it?
  7. Would it not be wiser, in the spirit of East African Community cooperation - for this matter to be discussed at EAC level instead of between just two member states?
  8. Would it not make more sense - to use the meagre funds that are available; to upgrade, renovate and strengthen both the road and railway infrastructure that is already in existence? The idea of extending the Central Line to both Rwanda and Burundi is highly laudable, feasible and realistic - with MASSIVE improvements in the Dar port itself!
Thanks!
 
Hodi! Hii ni mara yangu ya kwanza kushiriki mjadala wo wote ndani ya JF (kwa jina langu halisi)!

LET US LOOK AT THE CURRENT SITUATION:
  1. The existing Cental Line is badly utilisied, in need of massive upgrading AND there is already an MoU to extend it to Rwanda and Burundi (via the current Dry Port of Isaka?)
  2. What used to be the extension link from Ruvu Station junction to Tanga Port, Moshi and Arusha (as well as Moshi - Mombasa via Taveta) was discontinued generations ago! I last used that bit when a student in the 1970's!!
  3. The matter at hand is a FEASIBILITY STUDY, and not actual construction - even though it would cost about US $ 450 Million! I wonder where the funds for this study are to come from......
  4. Already conservationists the world over are against plans by the Government of Tanzania to construct a commercial highway linking Arusha and Mara Regions, as it would cut accross a 54KM section in the SERENGETI NATIONAL PARK, specifically in the Great Annual Migration Route between Serengeti National Park (Tanzania) and Maasai Mara Game Reserve (Kenya)
  5. An organisation called ANAW (African Network for Animal Welfare) has petitioned the East African Court of Justice to STOP the Government of Tanzania to go ahead with the Commercial Highway connecting Arusha and Mara Regions from Mto wa Mbu - Loliondo - SERENGETI NATIONAL PARK - Mugumu - Musoma. Instead, the Government should revisit and reconsider alternative options that have been strongly recommended by both local and international communities. The matter is in court, though Tanzania Government has claimed the court has no jurisdiction on the issue, the Presiding Judge (a Tanzania) has declared that contrary to GoT's opinion - it HAS jurisdiction and proceedings will continue! In case the railway project becomes a reality - this would be another legal hurdle against both Tanzania and Uganda Governments!
  6. The railway link in discussion is mainly for freight/cargo purposes - and NOT local communities' passenger needs. How are the people in the vicinities going to benefit from it?
  7. Would it not be wiser, in the spirit of East African Community cooperation - for this matter to be discussed at EAC level instead of between just two member states?
  8. Would it not make more sense - to use the meagre funds that are available; to upgrade, renovate and strengthen both the road and railway infrastructure that is already in existence? The idea of extending the Central Line to both Rwanda and Burundi is highly laudable, feasible and realistic - with MASSIVE improvements in the Dar port itself!
Thanks!

Well urgued...there is always personal gains attached to these kinds of bilatteral agreements. The idea of involving EAC in negotiation is very plausible and woulld reuce posiibilities of funds misuse through regional monetaory control. Hapa nahisi changa la macho la watu kujichotea mihela ya chaguzi zijazo.....stay tuned
 
Hodi! Hii ni mara yangu ya kwanza kushiriki mjadala wo wote ndani ya JF (kwa jina langu halisi)!

LET US LOOK AT THE CURRENT SITUATION:
  1. The existing Cental Line is badly utilisied, in need of massive upgrading AND there is already an MoU to extend it to Rwanda and Burundi (via the current Dry Port of Isaka?)
  2. What used to be the extension link from Ruvu Station junction to Tanga Port, Moshi and Arusha (as well as Moshi - Mombasa via Taveta) was discontinued generations ago! I last used that bit when a student in the 1970's!!
  3. The matter at hand is a FEASIBILITY STUDY, and not actual construction - even though it would cost about US $ 450 Million! I wonder where the funds for this study are to come from......
  4. Already conservationists the world over are against plans by the Government of Tanzania to construct a commercial highway linking Arusha and Mara Regions, as it would cut accross a 54KM section in the SERENGETI NATIONAL PARK, specifically in the Great Annual Migration Route between Serengeti National Park (Tanzania) and Maasai Mara Game Reserve (Kenya)
  5. An organisation called ANAW (African Network for Animal Welfare) has petitioned the East African Court of Justice to STOP the Government of Tanzania to go ahead with the Commercial Highway connecting Arusha and Mara Regions from Mto wa Mbu - Loliondo - SERENGETI NATIONAL PARK - Mugumu - Musoma. Instead, the Government should revisit and reconsider alternative options that have been strongly recommended by both local and international communities. The matter is in court, though Tanzania Government has claimed the court has no jurisdiction on the issue, the Presiding Judge (a Tanzania) has declared that contrary to GoT's opinion - it HAS jurisdiction and proceedings will continue! In case the railway project becomes a reality - this would be another legal hurdle against both Tanzania and Uganda Governments!
  6. The railway link in discussion is mainly for freight/cargo purposes - and NOT local communities' passenger needs. How are the people in the vicinities going to benefit from it?
  7. Would it not be wiser, in the spirit of East African Community cooperation - for this matter to be discussed at EAC level instead of between just two member states?
  8. Would it not make more sense - to use the meagre funds that are available; to upgrade, renovate and strengthen both the road and railway infrastructure that is already in existence? The idea of extending the Central Line to both Rwanda and Burundi is highly laudable, feasible and realistic - with MASSIVE improvements in the Dar port itself!
Thanks!
don't bring STSH issues here! who told u the other railways won't be renovated? do u think ur conservationists will bring food on ur table? soma hii report hapa http://vijana.fm/2011/12/27/east-africas-infrastructure-deficit/ uone the reality on the ground and don't be fooled by the so called conservationists in the West tell them to stand for the same environment protection in their countries first! we need infrastructure there for sustainable development even if it means building a tunnel across the Serengeti!
 
Porojo unazo wew
e unayeamini kuwa TZ hatutaingia gharama kwenye huo
mradi, gharama ziko wazi sana.
Waamini Kenya watapigana kila uchaguzi na Tz waendelee kuchekeana kila uchaguzi?

Kwa kawaida kwenye miradi mingine ya miundombinu serikali ya nchi miundombinu hiyo inakojengwa ndio huwa mgaramiaji mkuu. Lakini kwa mradi huu hakuna tofauti na ule wa TAZARA ambapo serikali yetu na Zambia kwa pamoja zilipewa mkopo (au kwa maana ingine ziligharamia kwa pamoja) na serikali ya China, kipindi hicjo walioutaka sana ule mradi walikuwa ni Zambia. Nimesema Uganda wanautaka sana huu mradi kutokana na sababu fulani za muhimu, sijasema kuwa hatutaingia gharama....:A S-coffee:

Kupinga matokeao ya uchaguzi sio kibali cha kuharibu miundo mbinu inayohudumia nchi za jirani (especially land locked ones). Yaani wewe kwa akii yako unataka watanzania wanaopinga matokeo ya uchaguzi waende wakang'oe reli ya TAZARA au wabomoe madaraja ya barabara kuu kuelekea Rwanda au Malawi unafikiri hizo nchi jirani zitawaamini tena?. Hii ndio sababu kubwa ya Uganda kutaka sana hii relli na bandari ya Tanga.:hat:

Haya, pamoja na mapungufu yote ya bandari ya Dar bado Rwanda na Burundi wanataka sana ule mradi mwingine wa kuikarabati reli ya kati ili watumie bandari ya Dar na wako tayari kuchangia pesa pia....:lol:
 
bantugbro, lemmie be submissive uncharacteristic of me. If your plan sees the day of light, trust me that new trade wars between Tz and Kenya will def be hatched to the adv of Uganda(they now have the bargainin power). am so waiting to see how this plays out, alot of hurdles in ua plan despite ugandas oil wealth (not yet mined) plus everything is still on paper. Be sure to expect some Kenyan twist to this.

Lets wait and see @whom's costs and benefits this new type of EAC transportation trade war will be. However, all indications suggests that it will be at KE's costs and UG's and TZ's benefits, or to put it in a more eloquent language of economics it will be a 'zero sum game':lol:.
 
don't bring STSH issues here! who told u the other railways won't be renovated? do u think ur conservationists will bring food on ur table? soma hii report hapa East Africa's Infrastructure Deficit uone the reality on the ground and don't be fooled by the so called conservationists in the West tell them to stand for the same environment protection in their countries first! we need infrastructure there for sustainable development even if it means building a tunnel across the Serengeti!


Geza Ulole, this thread has very little direct connection to STSH (STOP THE SERENGETI HIGHWAY) campaign, rather about a railway line linking Tanga port and Musoma, and wagon barges on to Uganda. I still stand by points I made! As to your arguments:
  • While conservationists will not bring food to your table, their efforts if successful will ascertain that the revenue accrued from sustainable tourism due to protection of the environment, nature and wildlife will increase instead of diminish.
  • Sustainable development and infrastructure improvement are NECESSARY, but we must also consider the long-term effects of such projects.
  • While nobody has 'told' me that the railways won't be renovated, experience speaks for itself!! You do not need eyes to see or ears to hear about what rot is going on and how we use 'fire-tender' methods to solve the so frequent and so unnecessary mishaps on our existing railway infrastructure.
Brother, I find this thread very educative, please use solid arguments and try to be objective. You and I both are interested in the fate of our people - and I use the term 'sustainable' similary to the term 'long term'. KARIBU.
 
Kwa kawaida kwenye miradi mingine ya miundombinu serikali ya nchi miundombinu hiyo inakojengwa ndio huwa mgaramiaji mkuu. Lakini kwa mradi huu hakuna tofauti na ule wa TAZARA ambapo serikali yetu na Zambia kwa pamoja zilipewa mkopo (au kwa maana ingine ziligharamia kwa pamoja) na serikali ya China, kipindi hicjo walioutaka sana ule mradi walikuwa ni Zambia. Nimesema Uganda wanautaka sana huu mradi kutokana na sababu fulani za muhimu, sijasema kuwa hatutaingia gharama....:A S-coffee:

Kupinga matokeao ya uchaguzi sio kibali cha kuharibu miundo mbinu inayohudumia nchi za jirani (especially land locked ones). Yaani wewe kwa akii yako unataka watanzania wanaopinga matokeo ya uchaguzi waende wakang'oe reli ya TAZARA au wabomoe madaraja ya barabara kuu kuelekea Rwanda au Malawi unafikiri hizo nchi jirani zitawaamini tena?. Hii ndio sababu kubwa ya Uganda kutaka sana hii relli na bandari ya Tanga.:hat:

Haya, pamoja na mapungufu yote ya bandari ya Dar bado Rwanda na Burundi wanataka sana ule mradi mwingine wa kuikarabati reli ya kati ili watumie bandari ya Dar na wako tayari kuchangia pesa pia....:lol:


Katika gazeti la 'Monitor' la Uganda, kuna Waziri mmoja amekaririwa akisema kwamba gharama zote za Upembuzi Yakinifu zitakuwa ni za Serikali ya Uchina....
 
don't bring STSH issues here! who told u the other railways won't be renovated? do u think ur conservationists will bring food on ur table? soma hii report hapa East Africa's Infrastructure Deficit uone the reality on the ground and don't be fooled by the so called conservationists in the West tell them to stand for the same environment protection in their countries first! we need infrastructure there for sustainable development even if it means building a tunnel across the Serengeti!

Conservation and infrastructure development are not mutually exclusive. It doesn't have to be one or the other but one should not be sacrificed for the other. And they both have economic benefits for current and future generations.
 
Conservation and infrastructure development are not mutually exclusive. It doesn't have to be one or the other but one should not be sacrificed for the other. And they both have economic benefits for current and future generations.
That's why the infrastructure and the ecosystem should co-exist along a 50 km stretch across the Serengeti, a WIN-WIN situation! I simply disagree the STSH stand simply cause they only push for a pristine Serengeti something neither of their countries have managed to demonstrate! we need an infrastructure that will do least damage to the Serengeti ecosystem at the same time competitive enough (distance-wise) with other corridors! a tunnel can solve the puzzle we have just like the way the Alps Mts are having tunnels and part of the Mt is a Heritage site!
 
Wameshaanza kuchonga, eti wanatetea Mbuga ya Serengeti!
halafu cha ajabu wakti serikali yao iko njiani kuharibu Marine ecosystem at Lamu on the proposed port wako kimya wakihangaika na mambo ya Serengeti! hawa jamaa ni wanafiki na wivu unawasumbua
 
That's why the infrastructure and the ecosystem should co-exist along a 50 km stretch across the Serengeti, a WIN-WIN situation! I simply disagree the STSH stand simply cause they only push for a pristine Serengeti something neither of their countries have managed to demonstrate! we need an infrastructure that will do least damage to the Serengeti ecosystem at the same time competitive enough (distance-wise) with other corridors! a tunnel can solve the puzzle we have just like the way the Alps Mts are having tunnels and part of the Mt is a Heritage site!

A tunnel is one way to go, so is the alternative route suggested by the STSH group. The only question i have with tunnel is, is this pathetic government of ours capable of executing such a project. They have been trying to build the Kigamboni bridge since the 1980's. A simple friggin bridge has taken them almost 30 years to get started on.
 
..if we want to build a railway frm Tanga to Musoma, then lets do so with Tanzanians in our minds, not bcuz Ugandans r pushing for the project.

..also, Rail construction should go hand in hand with promoting commercial farms, as well as industrial cities, which will be served by the railway.

..waswahili tuna msema wetu "mtegemea cha nduguye hufa maskini", tuachane na hizi projects ambazo zinategemea fadhila za Waganda,Wanyarwanda, Wazambia, etc etc. Lets think about, and plan for, Tanzanians first.
 
National
Activists oppose plan to build railway through national park

By FLAVIA LANYERO (email the author)

Posted Wednesday, December 28 2011 at 00:00
In Summary
Transport Minister Abraham Byandala said Parliament did not need to approve the deal because the Chinese are carrying out the feasibility study free of charge.



KAMPALA
Uganda and Tanzania have entered into a Memorandum of Understanding with a Chinese construction company to build a railway line passing through the Serengeti National Park to Kampala. However, conservationists have opposed the development, saying it is against international conservation treaties and that it will affect seasonal migration of the wild beasts through the park.
The Serengeti is a continuation of the Greater Mara Ecosystem which is famous for its exceptional population of big cats, game, and the annual migration of zebra, Thomson's gazelle, and wildebeest from the Serengeti every year from July to October, famously called the Great Migration.
The Minister for Transport, Mr Abraham Byandala, yesterday confirmed to Daily Monitor the signing of the MoUs which begin with the China Civil Engineering Construction Company conducting a feasibility study worth about $450 million for the proposed railway route from Tanga port to Musoma on the shores of Lake Victoria from where a new railway ferry route will then connect across the lake to a proposed new lake port in Uganda.
The new port would then be connected by a rail link to Kampala and beyond.
Mr Byandala said construction of Bukasa port has already began. This is despite the fact that two lake ports already exist at Port Bell and Jinja, which are currently underutilised.

"I signed for the state minister to travel and sign the documents and if he did travel then the memorandum should be signed," Mr Byandala said. He added that Parliament did not need to approve the deal because the Chinese are carrying out the feasibility study free of charge. The railway would also open up pending mining concessions in the area between Serengeti and Musoma and possibly give the much needed green light for a soda ash factory at Lake Natron in Tanzania.
‘Dirty' deal?
According to Prof. Wolfgang Thome's blog, the past president of the Uganda Tourism Association, the timing of the signing of the MoU was well chosen as many, including conservationists, are on vacation and could not pay much attention.
Uganda's conservation groups, who were not aware of the latest developments, said this move paints a bad picture to the country which has signed conservation treaties and it is important the Ministry of Transport makes public the feasibility studies and mitigation measures put in place for scrutiny.
"The government should follow certain guidelines in major investments in protected areas like the national park. This development should not have a negative impact like disrupting the migration routes for wild animals, we are interested in seeing the Environment Impact Assessment for the route," the Executive Director Advocates Coalition for Development and Environment, Mr Godber Tumushabe, said.
The Executive Editor of the Ecological Christian Organisation, Mr Isaac Kabong, said if the project will disrupt wildlife and tourism, then it is a setback to the conservation and tourism sector of the region and a bad name to the country for not honouring conservation treaties.
flanyero@ug.nationmedia.com
Activists oppose plan to build railway through national park*- National*|monitor.co.ug

MY TAKE
I would have felt not cheated if the same journalists will be talking on the endangered Marine ecosystem in protected Lamu! This sort of journalism shows there are hidden agenda behind the conservation! The same Nationmedia owns Monitor and what they do is smear campaigns! This so called Prof. Wolfgang should explain to us where was he when a city of Dresden in his native country was scrapped from World Heritage site after building a bridge across a protected site for him to campaign hard on keeping the Serengeti in its pristine nature? Is this the same person that was complaining about TANAPA closing the Bolongoja gate claiming the reason to be protectionism and contrarily to the spirit of East Africa that advocate influx of tourists in the reserves under one visa system!? why everyone become a champion of African affairs and not on his home affairs? Anya person with brain can tell us that the Serengeti with 15,000 sq km is a disadvantage to the livelihoods of the inhabitants living in its surroundings! But these retarded westerners don't see that to be a point enough to allow infrastructure within the ecosystem be it a tunnel or a road (across the shortest stretch) that will cause minimal effects! They are dreams are to see our mothers walking 40 kms fetching water and to have the reserve intact for their touristic adventures while they are not ready to pay (ecotax/Pigovian tax) for the costs incurred to the community for keeping the park in its original form considering they are deprived of the necessary social services that they are supposed to have in the name of conservation!
 
Geza Ulole,

..sasa ina maana Wakenya wakiamua kuharibu kwao na sisi tuwafuate kuharibu vya kwetu??

..I dont think the ecosystem of Lamu, is in any way comparable in value to that of Serengeti.

..There r alternative route to the road and railway that will not disturb the Serengeti ecosystem. We should explore those alternatives.
 
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