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Should the ICC be involved in this?

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Siasa' started by Mzee Mwanakijiji, Aug 3, 2009.

  1. Mzee Mwanakijiji

    Mzee Mwanakijiji Platinum Member

    Aug 3, 2009
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    Knowing what we know about arms trafficking to the conflict zones of Great Lakes region of Africa and based on the reality that most of the wars there revolve around the fight for the control of the natural resources; and knowing that Tanzania has been used (and probably still is) as a conduit of these illicit arms and based on information that some senior officials have enabled it (by omission, commission or both) should the International Criminal Court be involved in initiating investigation on the role Tanzania and some of its officials have or are still playing in the illicit arms trafficking.

    Bearing in mind two of great lakes arms traffickers and merceneries have a chilling connection to Tanzania? I mean Bout, Dr. Kambale and Tony?

    Should we involve ICC or can we handle our own business?

    If yes, why so?

    If no, why not?

    I need help making my mind on some "communications" I have initiated.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2009
  2. Rev. Kishoka

    Rev. Kishoka JF-Expert Member

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    You will be surprised that no one will be able to figure this out or understand what took place.

    As long as it is not the normal tabloid-politico junk that people can chant fisadi, no one can connect the dots even though your Meremeta report clearly unveils some serious stuff that is of great concern!
  3. Nyani Ngabu

    Nyani Ngabu Platinum Member

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    I just don't know how you guys keep up with this stuff (ufisadi)..
  4. Rev. Kishoka

    Rev. Kishoka JF-Expert Member

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    It is no longer Ufisadi of sijue Chenge, Karamagi, Rostam or sort, that is petty stuff.

    The real deal is stupidity that brought us all this mess. Nani alifumaniwa akiwa uchi kisha amekuwa blackmailed?

    What has happened on Meremeta is not about BOT of money from BOT, but failure to act upon the oath to protect the URT as stated on Katiba!
  5. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    if it was such a high profile why did it got to you, you seem to be chanting about patriotism and nothing TO offer on real SOLUTIONS the past should stay where it belongs or allow it to be the history for future generation to learn. we need the future visionaries rather than freedom fighters preaching on patriotism only aint going to solve tz problems.

    and yes its none of tanzanians problems that is the main post
  6. K

    Kwame Nkrumah JF-Expert Member

    Aug 3, 2009
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    One major issue on this whole saga is the system is not working. Judicial, intelligence, legislature, no rules and regulations whatsoever in Tanzania.No discipline at all. We have a tendency to wait for the President, PM to give orders. That is why nothing happens at THA unless the president himself pays them a visit. Even the speaker recently said " kama wanataka waende kunishtaki kwa Rais" The speaker himself thinks that he works fo the president. So i think sending this to ICC will further erode whatever little confidence in our rule of law that remains.
  7. Sungi

    Sungi Senior Member

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    There are several facts that need to be taken into account before the ICC has jurisdiction in any investigation and later prosecution;

    Generally, the ICC has jurisdiction to prosecute a case when a state party is unwilling or unable genuinely to carry out the investigation or prosecution, and (b) a state party has decided not to prosecute the persons concerned [see article 17 of the ICC Statute]


    (i). Are the crimes investigated within the jurisdiction of the ICC, according the Rome Statute of the ICC?

    -The ICC has jurisdiction on the following crimes: (1) Genocide, (2) Crimes against humanity, (3)War Crimes, (4) Aggression [ Article 5]
    The crimes that you allege in your question may fall within crimes against humanity, even though trafficking in arms is not a recognized crime under the ICC Statute.

    (ii). Before the ICC prosecutor initiates an investigation, the following have to be considered, (1) a situation (like the one you refer) is referred to the prosecutor by a state party [which Tanzania is a state party of the ICC, having ratified the ICC Statute in 2002], (2) a situation is referred to the court by the United Nations Security Council acting under Chapter VII of the UN Charter, and (3) an initiation by the prosecutor him/herself(proprio motu) after determining that the crimes committed under the jurisdiction of the ICC (as explained under (i) above).

    According to the facts you have laid out, I would submit that the ICC at the moment would not have jurisdiction to investigate and try any of the persons alleged to be involved on the commission of these crimes. These crimes could be tried by Tanzania national courts.

  8. Abdulhalim

    Abdulhalim JF-Expert Member

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    Thanks kwa kutoa ka-mwangaza maana kulikuwa na wingu zito sana la ukosefu wa uelewa.
  9. Rev. Kishoka

    Rev. Kishoka JF-Expert Member

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    I did not need to read Mwanakijiji's report to figure what happened! Everything that happened is a public knowledge, the question was could anyone piece everything together?

    Subiri Jumatano ijayo, then come Ulingoni!
  10. PJ

    PJ JF-Expert Member

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    Tanzania has no fanctional judicial system. If at all we depend on the present judicial system to deal with the culprits involved in these arms trafficiking to Great Lakes Conflict area we are simply wasting our time.

    If MMKJ is able to initiate the communication with ICC and provide the available evidence we may hope The ICC may take to task these People just like they are doing for Charles Taylor. Or at least the arest warrant as they have done for Sudanese Al Bashir.

    Keep on MKKJ
  11. M

    Magezi JF-Expert Member

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    As many has already contributed on this issue, I would rather say that Mkuu Mwanakijiji you really understand the judicial systems we have here in our lovely Tanzania, they are weak and completely corrupt.

    As a matter of helping us and provided you have concrete evidences that you think and you are confident that they can be accepted by the ICC? Then please go ahead with the move of communicating with the ICC, we down here in TZ can support your move in small matters because you know the situation on the ground.
  12. zomba

    zomba JF-Expert Member

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    What has all these got to do with you and what is your role in arms trafficking to question this? Au umbeya tu?
  13. M

    Magezi JF-Expert Member

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    Whom do you think has the right to question all these? You? or JK?
  14. zomba

    zomba JF-Expert Member

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    ........................ You!
  15. FairPlayer

    FairPlayer JF-Expert Member

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    This is a parti opinion formed beforehand without adequate evidence.

    Too childish to deal with.
  16. G

    Game Theory JF-Expert Member

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    ukifanya hivyo itabidi uwainvolve akina Crown Agents and this trail goes all the way to the top of the British establishment

    hilo haliwezekani

    Ndio maana Mark Thatcher pamoja na ushahidi kuwepo kuwa alikuwa on the way kupindua sERIKALI YA equatorial gUINEA LAKINI LEO YUKO FREE ANA KATA MBUGA MITAANI TUU
  17. K

    Kachero JF-Expert Member

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    Mimi nakubaliana na GT kuwa hilo likipelekwa huko ICC wakubwa watalibania kwa kuwa linamhusu kwa karibu Tony Blair na na wenzake na kama kawaida yao wakishafanya uchunguzi na kubaini ukweli hawatataka kijana wa nyumbani ahadhirike.

    Mkuu MJJ hilo limwagwe ndani ya Tanzania,watu wajichanganye.Wenye kuwewesuka wawewesuke,wenye kulia walie,wenye kushangaa washangae.Taasisi zisizo za kiserikali na baadhi ya balozi zitashikilia bango hii kitu hata kama Serikali haitaki kuwajibika once jambo hili likifahamika kimataifa kutakuwa na shinikizo ndani na nje.

    Serikali ya JK haina ubavu wa kupambana na shinikizo la ndani na nje,kuna kitu kitatokea tuu na kuwalazisha kugive in na hapo ndipo mabadiliko halisi yatatokea.Mkuu MJJ mwaga mambo ndani ya nchi tushikane mashati wenyewe.
  18. Mbogela

    Mbogela JF-Expert Member

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    Wataigeuza Politica agenda na ndio itakuwa mwisho wake. Iende the Hague ICC mkuu huko kutaweza pia kuamsha ari ya pressure ya ndani pia na mbano wa kimataifa pia.
  19. RealTz77

    RealTz77 JF-Expert Member

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    naona hii ni issue nyeti na kwa wote wanaopinga sijui wana maana gani,watakuwa wametumwa tu hao!! nchi km hii kussoprt arm trafficking nao ni part and parcel ya mauaji na uasi wa kivita, kwa kufanya hivyo ni kwa faida ya nani?kuna mapato? au ni ukibaraka wa kina UK, Us etc?in turn tunatangaziwa misaada?sasa hii dunia ndo imekaaje kama mambo ndo hivi?naona hili lisukumwe ICC na km halitafabnyiwa kazi baasi atleast tumewafichua hao wanaofanya kazi uvunguni, kupitia migongo, na kura zetu, ni mahasidi wa kuuawa hadharani, hawana adabu kabisa.
  20. U

    Utatu JF-Expert Member

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    Ni bora iwe hivyo.

    Heshima yao kiduchu itakuwa imechafuliwa daima kwa kuhusishwa na Arms trafficking. Na kwa nchi za wenzetu, heshima ni muhimu. Mwanakijiji, endelea mbele peleka kesi ICC.