Membe: Hatujapata taarifa kuhusu Israel!

[Roulette]

Wakati mwingine huyu jamaa huwa anatoa remarks which are "inconveniently" true. Mwaka 2008 alisema mkuu mpya wa intelligence could leak information to Iran. Turkey summoned the Israel ambassador for questioning.

Just mwezi uliopita aliulizwa if he were Iranian he would want a nuclear weapon, akasema ndiyo because Iran are not doing it just for Israel but because the world is full of nuclear weapons from Indian, Pakistan, Korea to Russua.

Wakati wa vita ya Libya alisema kuwa kama Gaddafi were allowed to turn nuclear, no one (Berlusconi or Sarkozy nor Cameron) would have dare to order the recent events. Mwaka 1999 alisema kuwa if he was a stateless young Palestinian, angejiunga na kundi la ugaidi.

On the other hand, kuna tatizo kubwa la Tanzania kutoheshimika au hata kutotambulika duniani. Sina maana ya kujustify alichosema Barack but Tanzania on the global arena haipo.

EMT, read again what you wrote before coming to this conclusion:
Can you see, from Mr. Barak's statements how people are wrong or right, black or white, clean or dirty, powerful or powerless based on the discourse? Mr. Barak is right: Ikiwa utamwambia mpalestine ajieleze kuhusu his struggle he will tell you what he thinks na utamwelewa. the same applies to any militant who knows who he is, and what he stands for.

If Tanzania is seen as an unimportant country leo, kuna vitu vingi vya kujiuliza:

1. Is it because Tanzania IS weak?
2. Is it because the dominant discourse of power and weakness PORTRAYS Tanzania as a weak country? (I think so)

China has developed its own discourse that places China on the top of development (all area) and Human rights, and places the US among the worse countries. And this scale is inculcated to all Chinese, they end up believing in that reality.
There was a time when we had an ideology. was it a good or a bad one? I don't think it is relevant to this topic.
However, what was good about having an ideology was the fact that most of Tanzanian carried their citizenship with pride and the world ended up respecting it. When you asked leaders, and the elite class, what they thought about Tanzania as a country, they actualy had a common understanding. they had a set of values, cultural identity, ideology, goal, vision that they could present to the world... and that discourse was repeated over and over... it ended up convincing not only Tanzanian but the rest of the world too.
Kumbuka what was said in the Consul letter: Tanzanian are peaceful people, and Tanzania is a naturaly diverse country. Now, is it not something Tanzanian could claim to have that Israeli don't have? If we decided that peace and war with neighbors, minimal security threats against the nation etc were the ultimate units of measuring the effectiveness of a government, would Israel be able to compete?
We are PERCEIVED as weak because we have allowed other countries to look at us through their criterion, and worse, we are looking at ourselves through other people's criterion. We don't know how we want to be seen... we don't have an image to defend.

Nimeona in this thread, and in other thread about the same topic, some Tanzanians, here in this forum, agreeing with Mr. Barak. Not that they agree that he has the right to express his opinion about Tanzania, but agreeing that Tanzania was nothing!
That is the sign that the discourse has penetrated us, kuliko tunavo fikiria. Some of us have accepted to be what other people want us to be.
Na uchungu sasa hivi nikuona maybe this reality has affected our leaders too, na ndio maana wanashindwa kutoa tamko.

 

[Dr Lizzy]

Ndio maana alisema "These [England, Germany and France] are very important, very relevant countries and we don't have an interest in increasing tensions with them or making them bitter enemies", which could be interpreted as to mean Tanzania and the other countries he mentioned are unimportant, irrelevant and they [Israel] may have an interest in increasing tensions with them or making them bitter enemies.

The statement simply means they couldn't care less whether we were their friends or not.

Hivi hatuwezi tu tukakubali alichosema kimejaa ukweli na kuacha kupambana na ukweli? Maana kitendo tu cha kutaka watuombe msamaha kinaashiria kwamba hatukubali sisi hatuna maana wala umuhimu kama taifa mbele ya mataifa mengine makubwa.Wakati ni ukweli mtupu.

 

[NGUVUMOJA]

Not only Tanzania has condemned Israel actions in Gaza, but it has also argued at the highest level for the state of Palestine. In his remarks when addressing the 66th United Nations General Assembly, United Nations, New York, on September 22, 2011, President Kikwete said this with emphasis added in red:

"We believed at independence, as we believe now and always, that all human beings are equal and deserve equal pursuit and protection of their civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights as outlined in what has come to be known as the International Bill of Rights. It is in this spirit that I wish to reaffirm our solidarity with the Palestinian people in their rightful quest for an independent homeland. Our plea is for the fulfilment of the vision of two states: The State of Israel and a sovereign, independent, democratic and viable Palestine, living sidebyside in peace and harmony. That is why we also remain in full solidarity with the people of Cuba in demanding the end to all embargos against them. The people in these two countries have suffered far too long, it is time their burdens are eased from their shoulders."

Kwa staili hii usitegemee kuwa "ally" wa Israel.

Hebu tukumbushane kidogo. Tz. ni mojawapo ya nchi Duniani yenye siasa isiyofungamana na upande wowote. Siasa hizi tulizishikilia tangu enzi za Nyerere. Wakati wa vita baridi kati ya mataifa makubwa (Mashariki na Magharibi) sie hatukuwa na upande wowote. Sana sana ilikuwa kazi yetu kutetea haki, kama tukiona dhulma au uonezi kwa nchi yoyote Duniani. Kwa msimamo huu tumetetea Palestina kwa kuvunja uhusiano na Israel. Pia tumeshawahi kuitetea Zimbabwe na siasa za Mugabe... Kwa msimamo huu pia tushawahi kugombana na n2i

 

[Nguruvi3]

EMT, read again what you wrote before coming to this conclusion:
Can you see, from Mr. Barak's statements how people are wrong or right, black or white, clean or dirty, powerful or powerless based on the discourse? Mr. Barak is right: Ikiwa utamwambia mpalestine ajieleze kuhusu his struggle he will tell you what he thinks na utamwelewa. the same applies to any militant who knows who he is, and what he stands for.

If Tanzania is seen as an unimportant country leo, kuna vitu vingi vya kujiuliza:

1. Is it because Tanzania IS weak?
2. Is it because the dominant discourse of power and weakness PORTRAYS Tanzania as a weak country? (I think so)

China has developed its own discourse that places China on the top of development (all area) and Human rights, and places the US among the worse countries. And this scale is inculcated to all Chinese, they end up believing in that reality.
There was a time when we had an ideology. was it a good or a bad one? I don't think it is relevant to this topic.
However, what was good about having an ideology was the fact that most of Tanzanian carried their citizenship with pride and the world ended up respecting it. When you asked leaders, and the elite class, what they thought about Tanzania as a country, they actualy had a common understanding. they had a set of values, cultural identity, ideology, goal, vision that they could present to the world... and that discourse was repeated over and over... it ended up convincing not only Tanzanian but the rest of the world too.
Kumbuka what was said in the Consul letter: Tanzanian are peaceful people, and Tanzania is a naturaly diverse country. Now, is it not something Tanzanian could claim to have that Israeli don't have? If we decided that peace and war with neighbors, minimal security threats against the nation etc were the ultimate units of measuring the effectiveness of a government, would Israel be able to compete?
We are PERCEIVED as weak because we have allowed other countries to look at us through their criterion, and worse, we are looking at ourselves through other people's criterion. We don't know how we want to be seen... we don't have an image to defend.

Nimeona in this thread, and in other thread about the same topic, some Tanzanians, here in this forum, agreeing with Mr. Barak. Not that they agree that he has the right to express his opinion about Tanzania, but agreeing that Tanzania was nothing!
That is the sign that the discourse has penetrated us, kuliko tunavo fikiria. Some of us have accepted to be what other people want us to be.maybe this reality has affected our leaders too, na ndio maana wanashindwa kutoa tamko.

Thank you! I wish I could share a cup of tea.

By the way, when comes the question of depravity, Israel has no competitor. I wonder the Ehud's moral authority to despise Tanzania. If arrogance qualifies someone to 'superiority' then Ehud has a point.

 

[Shine]

Tusijali kuhusu Israel, wao ni kunguni wanajali kunyunya kwa rafiki yao yoyote; kitu kinachotakiwa ni tuendelee kuchimba GAS ya kutosha kuuza utaona wanaanza kuleta pua zao kwetu, sababu GAS ya EGYPT is done finito, SYRIA hawana GAS wana PETROLEUM na ina UCHAFU kweli inatakiwa isafishwe haswa nchi zinazoinunua ni za EUROPE only petroli safi sana ni ya LIBYA .

Labda ya kwetu itakuwa safi pia

Kwani Tz wanalijua hilo? Kwa viongozi wetu walivyokaa kimaslahi wata ingiza siasa hata humo kwenye gas na mafuta

 

[Dr Lizzy]

Nimeona in this thread, and in other thread about the same topic, some Tanzanians, here in this forum, agreeing with Mr. Barak. Not that they agree that he has the right to express his opinion about Tanzania, but agreeing that Tanzania was nothing!
That is the sign that the discourse has penetrated us, kuliko tunavo fikiria. Some of us have accepted to be what other people want us to be.
Na uchungu sasa hivi nikuona maybe this reality has affected our leaders too, na ndio maana wanashindwa kutoa tamko.

RR we are what we are whether we like it or not.Hatuna kitu cha kujivunia inapokuja ishu ya taifa.Taifa letu ni weak in all aspects, kwanzia morality level all the way to leadership.That's just the way it is.Kuamini tofauti na hivyo itakua ni kujidanganya sisi wenyewe, na hamna kitu kibaya kama mtu kujidanganya mwenyewe. Kwahiyo ukisema tunaamini mataifa mengine yanachotaka tuamini, kwa maoni yangu naona kama unajipa moyo ambao hata haupo tena. Wewe unadhani ni kipi wanaona tofauti na kilivyo kweli? Kwani ni uwongo kwamba sisi ni masikini wa kutupwa? Ni uongo kwamba viongozi na serikali yetu ni hovyo? Ni uongo kwamba sisi ni moja ya mataifa madhaifu ukilinganisha na wenzetu hao wa magharibi na mashariki ya kati?Ni uongo kwamba hatuna faida kwa waIsrael kwa sasa?

 

[Shine]

unafikiri hajapata taarifa? aseme tu kuwa anaogopa kuwaudhi mabwana zake.

Kuwa nazo anazo sema ukiwa omba omba hata mkeo unawezakuchukuliwa usiwe na chakusema. Kwahiyo hapa tatizo ni serikali yetu kutegemea kuomba kuliko kujitegemea

 

[Nguruvi3]

The statement simply means they couldn't care less whether we were their friends or not.

Hivi hatuwezi tu tukakubali alichosema kimejaa ukweli na kuacha kupambana na ukweli? Maana kitendo tu cha kutaka watuombe msamaha kinaashiria kwamba hatukubali sisi hatuna maana wala umuhimu kama taifa mbele ya mataifa mengine makubwa.Wakati ni ukweli mtupu.

Lizzy, inawezekana hatuna umuhimu. Suala hapa ni kuwa kuna tatizo gani hadi atolee mfano Tanzania? Kwa taratibu za kidiplomasia haikubaliki hata kidogo.

Kama tuna matatizo ni yetu na tunapaswa tuyashugulikie sisi wenyewe. Israel haina sababu ya kuwa na ugomvi na EU halafu matusi yatupwe Tanzania.

 

[Shine]

Hivi taarifa kamili huwa anazipata kwa nani? Lile suala la ushoga alipata taarifa kwa nani?

Labda anataka kupata barua

 

[Shine]

Hata mimi ningekua Israel nisingemtilia maanani Tanzania. Hana faida kwake binafsi atamfaidisha vipi mwingine?

Hujakosea nchi inapelekwa kizuzu zuzu watajengaje nasi mahusiano wakati wao wanataka maendeo

 

[Shine]

What do you expect from Benard Membe????

Natemea atasema ni uchochezi wa vyombo vya habari

 

[Shine]

Lizzy, hakuna mtu anawalazimisha waisrael kuwathamini Watanzania. What we need to see ni reaction ya Tanzania kama taifa baada ya Israel kutamka mara mbili kua sio nchi muhimu, na kumaintain good relation na Tanzania sio muhimu.
Watanzania mnasema nini? Tanzania kama taifa inasema nini? Je, itaendelea kua na uhusiano na nchi hiyo? Those are the question Membe needs to address publicly.

Ingekuwa wenzetu kenya jibu lishapatikana toka kwa viongozi na hata wananchi kwani hawaendekezi ujinga kabisa

 

[Dr Lizzy]

Lizzy, inawezekana hatuna umuhimu. Suala hapa ni kuwa kuna tatizo gani hadi atolee mfano Tanzania? Kwa taratibu za kidiplomasia haikubaliki hata kidogo.

Kama tuna matatizo ni yetu na tunapaswa tuyashugulikie sisi wenyewe. Israel haina sababu ya kuwa na ugomvi na EU halafu matusi yatupwe Tanzania.

Yeahh kweli inawezekana kwamba statement yake haikua ya lazima sana ila haiondoi ukweli ndani yake.
Pengine alitumia kuonyesha msisitizo, na hivi hakutaja Tanzania pekee inaonyesha tulikua sehemu tu ya kusisitiza point yao. Muhimu ni sisi tuangalie namna ya kujiimarisha na kujijengea heshima badala ya kuishia kulalamika tu na kusubiria tupate sifa bila kufanyia kazi.

 

[Dr Lizzy]

Ingekuwa wenzetu kenya jibu lishapatikana toka kwa viongozi na hata wananchi kwani hawaendekezi ujinga kabisa

Wale wanajeuri ambayo sisi hatuna, mlima Kilimanjaro tu wanauclaim kama wao na sisi hatuna sauti ya kupingana nao ndio leo tuisimamie Israel kidete kisa wamesema ukweli juu yetu?

 

[Roulette]

RR we are what we are whether we like it or not.Hatuna kitu cha kujivunia inapokuja ishu ya taifa.Taifa letu ni weak in all aspects, kwanzia morality level all the way to leadership.That's just the way it is.Kuamini tofauti na hivyo itakua ni kujidanganya sisi wenyewe, na hamna kitu kibaya kama mtu kujidanganya mwenyewe. Kwahiyo ukisema tunaamini mataifa mengine yanachotaka tuamini, kwa maoni yangu naona kama unajipa moyo ambao hata haupo tena. Wewe unadhani ni kipi wanaona tofauti na kilivyo kweli? Kwani ni uwongo kwamba sisi ni masikini wa kutupwa? Ni uongo kwamba viongozi na serikali yetu ni hovyo? Ni uongo kwamba sisi ni moja ya mataifa madhaifu ukilinganisha na wenzetu hao wa magharibi na mashariki ya kati?Ni uongo kwamba hatuna faida kwa waIsrael kwa sasa?

Lizzy dear,
What I actually meant is that perception is created by the discourse.
What they say about Tanzania is ONE WAY of looking at things, and it is right. but there are other ways of looking at things, and they are also true, and we don't look at the alternatives because we have accepted this way.
Nakuona mara nyingi unatoa counseling to people. Do you know about Cinderella syndrome? When (among other symptoms) the subject only sees the negative sides of his/her personality. Ni kweli kua they are real, but they are PART of the reality. From the moment he/she changes that perception about himself/herself, and open up to the good things about him/her, the rest of the world will witness a transformation too.
Katika vitu vizuri nilitaja amani kati ya Watanzania, some degree of respect to our 'Africanity', floral, fauna and mineral wealth etc.
Ikiwa sisi wenyewe tutaanza kusema we are not 'nothing', our epistemic reality will also change, and the rest of the world will see it (as China and the Asian Tigers did)
That was the point I tried to make.

 

[bht]

Membe....'hatujapata taarifa za matamshi...'
Naibu waziri...'the government is holding serious consultation over the deregatory remarks....'
What a joke!!
Yaanisisi wenyewe hatujitambui halafu tuko tunakomaa mwingine atutambue?

 

[IPECACUANHA]

Tusijali kuhusu Israel, wao ni kunguni wanajali kunyunya kwa rafiki yao yoyote; kitu kinachotakiwa ni tuendelee kuchimba GAS ya kutosha kuuza utaona wanaanza kuleta pua zao kwetu, sababu GAS ya EGYPT is done finito, SYRIA hawana GAS wana PETROLEUM na ina UCHAFU kweli inatakiwa isafishwe haswa nchi zinazoinunua ni za EUROPE only petroli safi sana ni ya LIBYA .

Labda ya kwetu itakuwa safi pia

Idadi ya waisraeli waliopo kwenye makampuni ya gesi na mafuta hapa Tanzania itakushangaza.....

 

[Joss]

Membe is basically saying "I don't know what to say". Which is sad given the time this brouhaha has been in the news. Anachosema ni kwamba kila anayekutukana ni lazima aandike barua yenye letterhead , mhuri na sahihi, ikiorodhesha matusi yote. Sad.

Ukisikia kitu kimetangazwa na XINHUA kwa watu wanaoelewa kuwa XINHUA ni mouthpiece ya serikali ya China, halafu zimepita siku kadhaa hakuna mtu aliyewajibishwa XINHUA, na aliyesema kapewa nafasi ya kuomba radhi kakataa, hajachukuliwa hatua yotote, na serikali ya China haijakanusha, mwenye akili unajua kwamba kuuliza kwamba "Huu ni msimamo wa serikali ya China au?" ni swali la kizushi.

So goes for Reshet Klitat HaAliya/ Radio Israel.

Obviously hii either ni rookie gaffe or Wa Israel hawajali diplomacy na hawaogopi kusema ukweli ulio undiplomatic, obviously serikali ya Israel pamoja na Barak hawataki kukubali kuomba msamaha, obviously kwa kukataa kukubali wanaifanya hii rookie mistake iwe position ya serikali kwa sababu kwao ku apologize kutakuwa embarassing zaidi ya kukubali kwamba hii ni rookie mistake.

Kwanza wanaona Tanzania hatuna hata uhusiano wa kibalozi nanyi, pili nyie watetezi wa Palestina kila siku, tatu mnamtetea Iran awe na nuclear weapons, kwa hiyo kwa nini tu apologize kwa mtu ambaye hatuna chochote cha ku gain kwake? It's not like we are going to compete realistically for the Tanzanian vote in the UN kwa resolution ya kutaka Palestine iwe a member state.

Kwa msingi huu visiwa vya Kiribati huko South Pacific, vyenye watu takriban 100,000 na zero natural resources apart from tourist attracting beaches vinaweza kuwa muhimu kwa Israel kuliko Tanzania.

Ignorant statements like these makes one want to justify Iddi Amining all Israel nationals out of Tanzania, but you can't punish people for the mistakes of politicians.

This should be an argument against the notion that Israel is "Taifa la Mungu". Kama mungu angekuwa na taifa certainly asingeumba waziri aliye stupid kufanya needless undiplomatic gaffes kama hii.

Hivi anmgesema tu kwamba Uingereza na Ujerumani ni muhimu na si kama nchi zisizoendelea point yake isingeeleweka? Kulikuwa na ulazima gani wa kununua controversy bila sababu?

Humtukani hata ombaomba irrelevant ambaye huna haja ya kumtukana sio tu kwa sababu si sawa na ni ushenzi, lakini pia kwa sababu hujui huyu ombaomba kesho atakuwa nani na anaweza kukusaidiaje.Ndiyo maana naiita hii "rookie mistake". It is a wanton disregard for the most basic principles of civility and diplomacy (especially when nothing is at stake). Generality.

Argument haitasidia kubadili lolote lile, kwani hakuna alazimishwaye kuamini hivyo. Atakaye amini kuwa Israel ni Taifa Teule aamini asiye amini asiamini.

 

[dudus]

Nadhani imetokea tu kwamba, incidentally, the names "Mauritania" and "Tripolitania" just happen to ryhme with "Tanzania" (off the bat at as it presumably were). Lakini, at the same time, looking at the bigger picture, Ehud Barak wasn't exactly deluded at saying what he didespecially given the inferior and virtually obscure status of Tanzania internationally.

That's why we want the name of our land back! TANGANYIKA nchi yetu, jina lako ni la pekee na tamu ajabu, TUNAKUPENDA. Tumechakachua jina lako, ona sasa!

 

[Mzee Wa Rubisi]

Membe hana ubavu wa kuwajibu