Je, Biblia ya ukweli/Halisi ni ipi?

[Boniphace Bembele Ng'wita]

Noted

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[Katikiro Jr]

Kamatia baba

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[Nonda]

Kusujudu ni kufanya nini Mkuu!?

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Ni kufumba macho wakati roho mtakatifu anapowatokea wale kina mama wacha mungu.

 

[Kisoda2]

Kukuuliza haina maana nimetoka nje ya mada. Sasa kwakuwa wewe ni mfuasi/muabudu mungu mwezi/makopo/Jiwe etc.
Jibu ni hili. Na mistari hii inakuhusu sana mtu kama wewe.

Matthew 7:3-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

[zitto junior]

Kukuuliza haina maana nimetoka nje ya mada. Sasa kwakuwa wewe ni mfuasi/muabudu mungu mwezi/makopo/Jiwe etc.
Jibu ni hili. Na mistari hii inakuhusu sana mtu kama wewe.

Matthew 7:3-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Mkuu sasa mambo ya kutoa boriti sijui kibanzi yanahusiana nini na mada?? Yaani assume mimi naabudu mawe na nina boriti sijatoa jichoni mwangu pamoja na mabaya yote duniani je nikiuliza hili swali kuhusu biblia gani inafaa alafu wewe ukanipa huu mstari utakuwa umenisaidia kweli??

Baki kwenye mada umesema bible zote wapo sawa sasa huu mstari wa mathayo ukisoma Samaritan Bible haitambui kabisa kitabu cha mathayo hivo huu mstari sitouona je hadi hapo huoni Biblia haziwezi kuwa sawa?? Yaani ww unayesoma Mathayo mkristo wa Israel anakuona umepotoka sababu bible yake haitambui hizo 4 gospels sasa wote mpo sawa mkuu???

Embu tujikite kwenye mada kejeli zije baadae

 

[Kisoda2]

Mkuu sasa mambo ya kutoa boriti sijui kibanzi yanahusiana nini na mada?? Yaani assume mimi naabudu mawe na nina boriti sijatoa jichoni mwangu pamoja na mabaya yote duniani je nikiuliza hili swali kuhusu biblia gani inafaa alafu wewe ukanipa huu mstari utakuwa umenisaidia kweli??

Baki kwenye mada umesema bible zote wapo sawa sasa huu mstari wa mathayo ukisoma Samaritan Bible haitambui kabisa kitabu cha mathayo hivo huu mstari sitouona je hadi hapo huoni Biblia haziwezi kuwa sawa?? Yaani ww unayesoma Mathayo mkristo wa Israel anakuona umepotoka sababu bible yake haitambui hizo 4 gospels sasa wote mpo sawa mkuu???

Embu tujikite kwenye mada kejeli zije baadae

Hakuna kejeli hapo.
Nimekuuliza swali la msingi sana. ili nikikujibu nikujibu kwa kile unachoamini ili unielewe.
Jibu lako limekuja la hovyo. Hiyo ndiyo size ya jibu lako PERIOD!.

 

[zitto junior]

Hakuna kejeli hapo.
Nimekuuliza swali la msingi sana. ili nikikujibu nikujibu kwa kile unachoamini ili unielewe.
Jibu lako limekuja la hovyo. Hiyo ndiyo size ya jibu lako PERIOD!.

Kama hoja imekushinda unaenda kujisomea alafu unarudi na majibu sio kulazimisha fikra zako ziwe sahihi ilihali hazina mashiko.

Wewe jibu swali unaposema Biblia zipo sawa ilihali zinakinzana je kivipi zote ziwe halali

Mfano kuna Biblia hazitambui kabisa uwepo wa Yesu kama messiah sababu imefuta kabisa Gospels i.e. Samaritan Bible maana inatambua Torah pekee kama vitabu vitakatifu na vingine vyote ni BATILI!!

sasa ni vizuri ungeitetea hoja yako kwa upana kuliko kuhangaika na nachoamini mimi maana hakiwezi badili swali langu so tujadili muktadha sio WATU!

 

[Kisoda2]

Kama hoja imekushinda unaenda kujisomea alafu unarudi na majibu sio kulazimisha fikra zako ziwe sahihi ilihali hazina mashiko.

Wewe jibu swali unaposema Biblia zipo sawa ilihali zinakinzana je kivipi zote ziwe halali

Mfano kuna Biblia hazitambui kabisa uwepo wa Yesu kama messiah sababu imefuta kabisa Gospels i.e. Samaritan Bible maana inatambua Torah pekee kama vitabu vitakatifu na vingine vyote ni BATILI!!

sasa ni vizuri ungeitetea hoja yako kwa upana kuliko kuhangaika na nachoamini mimi maana hakiwezi badili swali langu so tujadili muktadha sio WATU!

Unaposema tusijadili WATU, kwani hivyo vitabu wanatumia MBUZI KUABUDU? Mbona unakuwa kama siyo Muislam?
Swali langu kuhusu imani yako ndio linanipa uwanja mpana wa kukupa jibu kulingana na kile unachoamini. Kinyume na hapo huwezi kubali jibu langu sawa na ilivyo sasa! Maana tayari wewe unajibu lako.
La kwangu bado lipo pale pale. ZIPO SAWA KULINGANA NA UELEWA NA UFAHAMU WA MTUMIAJI!

 

[zitto junior]

Unaposema tusijadili WATU, kwani hivyo vitabu wanatumia MBUZI KUABUDU? Mbona unakuwa kama siyo Muislam?
Swali langu kuhusu imani yako ndio linanipa uwanja mpana wa kukupa jibu kulingana na kile unachoamini. Kinyume na hapo huwezi kubali jibu langu sawa na ilivyo sasa! Maana tayari wewe unajibu lako.
La kwangu bado lipo pale pale. ZIPO SAWA KULINGANA NA UELEWA NA UFAHAMU WA MTUMIAJI!

Kwanza hii mentality ya kila anayehoji Biblia kwamba lazima ni muislam imetoka wapi?? Mie huwa niko balanced sana na mijadala ya kidini nisome hapa navyoitetea Biblia soma kuanzia hiyo page mpaka mjadala ulipoisha.

Zifahamu siri 7 zilizofichika kuhusu sikukuu ya Pasaka - JamiiForums

2. Back to mada.... Unasema viko sawa kulingana na uelewa wa mwanadamu hapo nakubaliana na wewe 100%. Ila wote tunafahamu mawazo ya Mungu ndio tunatakiwa kuyafuata sio ya mwanadamu sasa basi mbele ya macho ya Mungu ni anafurahi kuona Biblia zikikinzana?? Je anawatreat wote sawa machoni pake??

Karibu

 

[Damaso]

Bible ina siri kubwa sana ambayo najua some of us hatuijui.
Mfano: Kuna mistari watu wanaitafsiri vibaya pia hata matukio. Na kikubwa ni kuwa hatutaki kukubaliana na ukweli kuwa Biblia ni mjumuiko wa vitabu vya manabii

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[Kisoda2]

Kwanza hii mentality ya kila anayehoji Biblia kwamba lazima ni muislam imetoka wapi?? Mie huwa niko balanced sana na mijadala ya kidini nisome hapa navyoitetea Biblia soma kuanzia hiyo page mpaka mjadala ulipoisha.

Zifahamu siri 7 zilizofichika kuhusu sikukuu ya Pasaka - JamiiForums

2. Back to mada.... Unasema viko sawa kulingana na uelewa wa mwanadamu hapo nakubaliana na wewe 100%. Ila wote tunafahamu mawazo ya Mungu ndio tunatakiwa kuyafuata sio ya mwanadamu sasa basi mbele ya macho ya Mungu ni anafurahi kuona Biblia zikikinzana?? Je anawatreat wote sawa machoni pake??

Karibu

Hata Shetani hujigeuza malaika wa Nuru apate kuwahadaa wanadamu!

Vema kama walitambua hilo kwa 100%.
Kuhusu Mungu anawaonaje, anafurahia na je, anawa treat namna gani machoni pake? Huu ni mjadala mwingine. Ila kwa kifupi tu. Wote ni viumbe wake na kwake mtarudi na kupimiwa kwa kiwango sawa na ulivyotenda. Cha msingi utambue kuwa umepewa uhuru wa kuchagua kati ya Mungu wa kweli umfate au miungu mingine.

Hii mistari ituongoze.

1 John 4:1-6 New International Version (NIV)
On Denying the Incarnation
4 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Roho wa Mungu akuongoze vyema kuifikia kweli!
Ubarikiwa sana.

 

[MAKOSHNELI]

UTANGULIZI
Historia ya Biblia ya kikristo ni ndefu jinsi vitabu vilivyopatikana lakini ntaandika kwa kifupi sana na mengine tutaandaika tunavyozidi kuchangia kwenye uzi huu. Na pia nitoe rai mapema kuwa uzi huu sio wa kidini bali wa kielimu/historia hivyo sitegemei watu kurushiana matusi ya kuhusu dini sijui Mungu yupo au hayupo!! N.k
abu 73, waprotestant vitabu 66, Orthodox Tawahedo (Ethiopia) ina vitabu 81 hili limenifanya nifungue uzi ili tumalize mkanganyiko huu na naomba tusome taratibu na kwakuelewa mada inazungumzia nini kabla ya kuchangia kwa kuongozwa na ushabiki au mihemko.
Moderator[/USER] kina Active na Mhariri msihamishe uzi huu jukwaa la dini ili niweze kupata mawazo ya wana JF wote hta wasio na access na jukwaa la dini, nitashukuru kwa hilo.

Umeandika vizuri japo kuna makosa kidogo ya kimtazamo umeyafanya mwanzoni mwa mada yako umeomba mjadala huu usijadiliwe kidini wakati unazungumzia kitabu cha dini nadhan sio sahihi kuijadili biblia na vitabu vyake kwakutumia historia,vitabu vya biblia hujadiliwa kwa kutumia maandiko ya Mungu Mwenyewe dhidi ya maandiko yake mwenyewe
Mfano.......
1.Mungu Mwenyewe kasema yeye sio mwandishi wa mkanganyiko (AUTHOR OF CONFUSSION)
1 wakolintho 14:33,soma biblia ya KJV ndio utapata maana nzuri zaidi '33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints " Kwahiyo kama Mungu kasema sio mwandishi wa kuchanganya bali wa amani kwa kanisa loote la watakatifu wake kamwe mkanganyiko wowote utakao husisha maandiko yake umetengenezwa na yule adui mwovu shetani kwa lengo la kuvuruga uelewa wa watu

2.Mungu sio mwanadamu mpaka aseme uongo
Hesabu 23:19

sasa kwakutumia hizo nguzo mbili hapo tunaweza tukavichambua vitabu hivyo vilivyozidi zaidi ya hapo 66 kwenye hiyo biblia ya kiprotestant kama ulivyoiweka, sasa kwa haraka haraka ipo hivi,maandiko mengi kwenye biblia yanatengeneza kitu kinaitwa "HARMONY" yaani yanatengeneza muunganiko flani mmoja yanaungana mkono na hayapingani yenyewe kwa yenyewesababu yoote yametoka kwa Mungu mmoja,mfano kuna zile amri 10 za Mungu kwenye kitabu cha kutoka 20,utakuta kuanzia pale hadi mwisho wa biblia vitabu vingine vinaendelea kuzirejea,kuzikumbushia,kuzisistiza nk kwahiyo kama kikitokea kitabu cha ziada cha hapo 66 kinatakiwa kiungane mkono pafectly na vitabu vingine 66!

1. Naanza na kitabu cha HENOKO(ENOCH)
Ukisoma kitabu cha Yuda 1:14 kinasema hivi "
"Na Henoko, mtu wa saba baada ya Adamu, alitoa maneno ya unabii juu ya hao, akisema, Angalia, Bwana alikuja na watakatifu wake, maelfu maelfu,
15 ili afanye hukumu juu ya watu wote, na kuwaadhibisha wote wasiomcha Mungu, kwa ajili ya kazi zao zote za upotevu walizozitenda bila kumcha Mungu, na kwa ajili ya maneno magumu yote ambayo hao wenye dhambi wasiomcha Mungu wameyanena juu yake.
Sasa swali linakuja hivi huu unabii wa Henoko (yule aliyepaishwa na Mungu kwenda mbinguni) umeandikwa wapi katika biblia hiyo ya vitabu 66 mpaka nabii Yuda akaunukuu????,inamaana hadi huyu nabii Yuda anaunukuu kuna mahala umeandikwa kama vile tu walivyokuwa wananukuu torati ya Musa sababu iliandikwa kwenye vile vitabu vya Musa!
Ukweli ni kwamba kuna kitabu cha HENOKO na ndio kuna huu unabii amabo mtume YUDA alikuwa ananukuu,haya maneno ya YUDA hayapatikani popote kwenye biblia Henoko alipoyasema zaidi ya kwenye kitabu chake alichoandika .

itaendelea..

 

[Nonda]

Kisilamu silamu umepatia! karibu Italia nyau nyau...hhhhhhhhhh

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Tucheke kwa pamoja mgen.

Link Vatican’s Secret Rules for Catholic Priests Who Have Children

 

[MTAZAMO]

Shukrani mods kwa kuuachia mapema karibuni great thinkers mtupie maoni yenu

Nimeona nilete maandiko ya wataalamu mbalimbali ili kwa wale walioamua kuchimba ukweli halisi wapate references za kutosha. Naomba tumsome huyu ambaye pia katoa historia ya Biblia vizuri sana.


The word “canon” means rule or measure. In terms of the Bible, it specifically refers to the list of the books that are inspired by the Holy Spirit and are thus deemed Sacred Scripture. Therefore, the books in the Bible are called canonical and the books that are not determined to be inspired by God are extra-canonical. How did this determination come about? This is what we will examine here.

Almost all Christians believe in the truths found in the Bible, but there are two different lists of what belongs in the Old Testament – the list used by the Catholic Church (and most Eastern Orthodox) and the list used by most Protestants. The Protestant canon contains 7 fewer books than the Catholic canon. These 7 books are called the deuterocanon (“second” canon).

These books were given the name deuterocanon because a few hundred years ago we did not have copies of them in Hebrew and they were not part of some Hebrew Bibles. Thus, they were deemed to be part of a second canon written in Greek. We now have manuscripts, or partial manuscripts, that show that most, if not all, of the books were written in Hebrew or Aramaic.

Protestants call these seven books apocryphal, meaning that they are not part of the canon of the Bible.
Thus, we have two different lists of what books should be part of the Old Testament.Many Christians have never reflected on the history of the Bible and how it came to be. They just assume that it is authoritative and we should consider all the books in the Bible as Sacred Scripture.

Here is a brief history of how the Bible came to be put together.

Jesus came and taught his disciples. During the time of Jesus there were several different lists of the Old Testament Scriptures in different Jewish groups.

Jesus’ disciples spread his message orally for years.

His disciples started to write down the messages of Jesus.

During the early Church some Jews decided to try and set the OT canon. This failed to solve the issue of different lists for different Jews. Thus, the Jewish canon was never decided authoritatively by the Jews. Once Jesus came, the Jews no longer had the authority to set the Jewish canon for Christians.

Different local Churches started to compile these different writings. Many of the lists differed from one another dramatically.

The Catholic Church started to discern, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, what was inspired and what was not. This goes for both the New Testament and the Old Testament.

Several Catholic Councils of Bishops declared the list of Scripture as we have it today – Council of Hippo, 393 A.D. / Carthage, 397 A.D. / Carthage 419 A.D.

This list remained fixed through hundreds of years.

Saints, bishops, Popes and the Council of Florence (1442 A.D.) affirmed the list.

The list is challenged seriously for the first time by Martin Luther, when he rejects the 7 deuterocanonical books. He decides to throw them out of his new canon. Thus, the Protestant Bible is first born in the 1500s. He bases this decision on faulty evidence:

He claimed they contained doctrines contrary to the rest of Scripture (rather, he didn’t like the teachings that supported Catholic doctrines).

He claimed that the Jews had set this canon (rather, there were still different lists by different Jewish groups).

He claimed that only the Scriptures written in Hebrew were of the canon (rather, he didn’t have access to the documents that show they were written in Hebrew).

The list of Sacred Scripture is put down dogmatically in the Council of Trent, which followed the Protestant Reformation. This is because dogma is usually not declared unless first challenged seriously.

You can see from this short history that the canon was established by the Catholic Church early on. All Christians agree on the New Testament, but still differ on the Old Testament canon.

Here is some other evidence in favor of the Catholic list of the OT canon.

God never gave the Jews a way to settle the debate over what books should be in the Jewish canon.

In the time of Jesus there were several different groups of Jews with different lists of their Scriptures:

The Samaritans and Sadducees accepted the law but rejected the prophets and writings.

The Pharisees accepted all three.

Some Jews used the Greek version called the Septuagint. This is the list that the Catholic Church uses. Textual analysis indicates that most of the New Testament writers quote most often from the Septuagint in the NT, therefore indicating that they used and accepted it.

Some smaller groups with different lists.

The early Christian Church Fathers accepted the deuterocanonical books as inspired.

To summarize – the Catholic Church put together the different books of the Bible, while guided by the Holy Spirit. This list was not challenged until Martin Luther threw out 7 books. Unfortunately, many Christians uncritically accept the lie that the Catholic Church added 7 books, which doesn’t square with the evidence. We can be confident that the books in the bible, as ratified by the Catholic Church, are truly inspired by the Holy Spirit for our salvation.

I know this is the Cliff Notes version. If you want more details, I highly recommend the book – Where We Got the Bible by Henry Graham.


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[zitto junior]

Mkuu MTAZAMO ahsante kwa kushare hilo bandiko la kisomi lakini kuna kitu muhimu sana amekiacha.

Hajaeleza je Canon ilikuwa fixed (maximum books) tokea enzi Biblia inaanza kuandikwa na wayahudi walipokuwa uhamishoni au kulikua na canon tofauti ukiachana na septuagint..... Maana kuna wakati wayahudi waliokuwa uhamishoni walitofautiana namba ya vitabu na wayahudi waliobaki/rudi Israel hasa baada ya kopi za kigiriki na kiebrania kuandikwa zikiwa na namba za vitabu tofauti na hapa ndio mzizi wa hoja. Ilitakiwa aeleze je ipi ilianza kabla ya ingine ili tujue nani ndio ana biblia halisi kati ya Greek septuagint au Hebrew masoretic.

2. Anasema pia Biblia ya catholic yenye vitabu 7 zaidi haikuwa challenged ila anasahau kuwa Padri Jerome alipotafsiri Biblia kutoka kiebrania kwenye kilatin (lugha ya kanisa) takribani miaka 1000 kabla martin luther hajazaliwa alivitenga vitabu vya Deuterocanonical kutoka main canon yaani hakuvipa hadhi sawa na vile vingine hivyo si kweli kuwa hivi vitabu 7 havikuwa challenged maana kama vinsingepingwa ina maana vingewekwa kwenye agano la kale kama vingine.

3. Ameongelea kuwa church fathers walivikubali. Hiyo hoja ipo too general anaposema church fathers bila kumtaja hata mmoja fathers kama origen,jerome,Athanasius na Cyril hawakuvitambua hivyo vitabu 7 vya wakatoliki sasa anaacha maswali kidogo.

4. Pia kaongelea tu catholic vs protestants canon hajaeleza kuwa hata kabla martin luther hajazaliwa kuna makanisa kama East orthodox yalikuwa na canon tofauti na catholic. Mfano Ethiopian Tawahedo Orthodox church walikuwa na canon ya vitabu 80+ tokea AD 400 ila ameruka hadi kwa martin luther kana kwamba kabla ya hapo makanisa yote yalikuwa na canon moja!!

HITIMISHO
Bandiko hilo bado limeacha utata juu ya suala hili maana halijajibu baadhi ya hoja tulizoibua humu

Shukrani

​

 

[MTAZAMO]

Mkuu MTAZAMO ahsante kwa kushare hilo bandiko la kisomi lakini kuna kitu muhimu sana amekiacha.

Hajaeleza je Canon ilikuwa fixed (maximum books) tokea enzi Biblia inaanza kuandikwa na wayahudi walipokuwa uhamishoni au kulikua na canon tofauti ukiachana na septuagint..... Maana kuna wakati wayahudi waliokuwa uhamishoni walitofautiana namba ya vitabu na wayahudi waliobaki/rudi Israel hasa baada ya kopi za kigiriki na kiebrania kuandikwa zikiwa na namba za vitabu tofauti na hapa ndio mzizi wa hoja. Ilitakiwa aeleze je ipi ilianza kabla ya ingine ili tujue nani ndio ana biblia halisi kati ya Greek septuagint au Hebrew masoretic.

2. Anasema pia Biblia ya catholic yenye vitabu 7 zaidi haikuwa challenged ila anasahau kuwa Padri Jerome alipotafsiri Biblia kutoka kiebrania kwenye kilatin (lugha ya kanisa) takribani miaka 1000 kabla martin luther hajazaliwa alivitenga vitabu vya Deuterocanonical kutoka main canon yaani hakuvipa hadhi sawa na vile vingine hivyo si kweli kuwa hivi vitabu 7 havikuwa challenged maana kama vinsingepingwa ina maana vingewekwa kwenye agano la kale kama vingine.

3. Ameongelea kuwa church fathers walivikubali. Hiyo hoja ipo too general anaposema church fathers bila kumtaja hata mmoja fathers kama origen,jerome,Athanasius na Cyril hawakuvitambua hivyo vitabu 7 vya wakatoliki sasa anaacha maswali kidogo.

4. Pia kaongelea tu catholic vs protestants canon hajaeleza kuwa hata kabla martin luther hajazaliwa kuna makanisa kama East orthodox yalikuwa na canon tofauti na catholic. Mfano Ethiopian Tawahedo Orthodox church walikuwa na canon ya vitabu 80+ tokea AD 400 ila ameruka hadi kwa martin luther kana kwamba kabla ya hapo makanisa yote yalikuwa na canon moja!!

HITIMISHO
Bandiko hilo bado limeacha utata juu ya suala hili maana halijajibu baadhi ya hoja tulizoibua humu

Shukrani

​

Mkuu uzi wako umenichemsha ubongo na kufanya nichimbechimbe kutafuta facts. Mimi si mtaalam wa maandiko lakini najifunza pia kwa njia tofauti ikiwemo mijadala huru kama hii.

Nimemsoma huyu Catholic apologists na kuona amegusia maeneo mengi ya maswali yako. Lakini pia usisahau Padre Jerome hakujiongoza kufanya tafsiri ila alipewa kazi na Pope. Tunaona ilifika sehemu akaacha Kanisa lifanye Canonization maana yeye hakuwa na authority hiyo. Soma zaidi hapa chini ...


By JASON BEVERT • 9/1/2000

1Why did the Catholic Church add seven books—1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, Tobit, and Judith—to the Old Testament? John forbids this: “I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book” (Rev. 22:18).

It’s always good to start a disagreement with agreement. So before you explain the Catholic canon of the Old Testament to Protestant, agree that no one has the right to add or subtract books from the Bible. That’s about as much common ground as you may have to build on.

Quoting Rev. 22:18 against Catholics is ineffective. For one thing, the next verse could be used by the Catholics against Protestants with the same opposite force: “[A]nd if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book” (Rev. 22:19).

But neither verse applies to this debate. John is speaking only about the book of Revelation, not the entire Bible. None of the apostles knew the Bible. The books that comprise Scripture were not canonized until centuries after Christ. Even when that list was established in A.D. 382, the writings were not collected into a single book until after the printing press came into existence. Even Guttenburg’s Bible was published in more than one volume.

Besides, the Greek word here for “book” is more accurately translated as “scroll.” The book of Revelation likely was written on a scroll, but it would have been impossible for the entire Bible to be.

2. Since the Jews were “entrusted with the oracles of God” (Rom. 3:2), shouldn’t we have the same Old Testament canon as they do?

Though this is not a sound objection, it at least requires a detailed answer.

God’s written word was entrusted to the Jews, but he never provided them with an inspired table of contents. For that reason, there has been ample disagreement over the canon—especially among Jews.

The Old Testament took over one thousand years to compile, and the list of inspired books grew continuously as God’s word was revealed. This gradual accretion indicated that the Jewish people felt no need for a static canon but remained open to further revelation. They divided their sacred writings into three parts: the law, the prophets, and the writings (which were canonized in that order). By the time of Christ, the law—and most likely the prophets—was set in number, but the writings were not yet closed.

In Jesus’ time, the Samaritans and Sadducees accepted the law but rejected the prophets and writings. The Pharisees accepted all three. Other Jews used a Greek version (the Septuagint) that included the seven disputed books, known as the deuterocanonicals. Still other Jews used a version of the canon that is reflected in the Septaguint and included versions of the seven books in question in their original Hebrew or Aramaic.

When the Christians claimed that they had written new scriptures, Jews from a rabbinical school in Javneh met around year 80 and, among other things, discussed the canon. They did not include the New Testament nor the seven Old Testament works and portions of Daniel and Esther. This still did not settle the Pharisee canon, since not all Jews agreed with or even knew about the decision at Javneh. Rabbis continued to debate it into the second and third centuries. Even today, the Ethiopian Jews use the same Old Testament as Catholics.

If anything is certain, it is that there was no common canon among the Jews at the time of Christ.
3. But the seven deuterocanonical books were added at the Council of Trent (1546) in order to justify Catholic doctrinal inventions.

This is a myth that always comes up but is simple to answer. At the Council of Rome in 382, the Church decided upon a canon of 46 Old Testament books and 27 in the New Testament. This decision was ratified by the councils at Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), Florence (1442), and Trent (1546).

Further, if Catholics added the deuterocanonical books in 1546, then Martin Luther beat us to the punch: He included them in his first German translation, published the Council of Trent. They can also be found in the first King James Version (1611) and in the first Bible ever printed, the Guttenberg Bible (a century before Trent). In fact, these books were included in almost every Bible until the Edinburgh Committee of the British Foreign Bible Society excised them in 1825. Until then, they had been included at least in an appendix of Protestant Bibles. It is historically demonstrable that Catholics did not add the books, Protestants took them out.

Luther had a tendency to grade the Bible according to his preferences. In his writings on the New Testament, he noted that the books of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation were inferior to the rest, and they followed “the certain, main books of the New Testament.” In 1519, this same attitude fueled his debate against Johannes Eck on the topic of purgatory. Luther undermined Eck’s proof text of 2 Maccabees 12 by devaluing the deuterocanonical books as a whole. He argued that the New Testament authors had never quoted from the seven books, so they were in a different class than the rest of the Bible.

4. Well, if the New Testament never quotes from these seven books, doesn’t that indicate that they were not considered to be inspired?

Following this reasoning, we’d have to throw out the eight other Old Testament books—such as the Song of Songs—that are also not quoted in the New Testament. If we’re not willing to do that, we have to agree that the absence of a quote in the New Testament does not suggest that a book is not inspired.

Though there are no quotes, the New Testament does make numerous allusions to the deuterocanonical books. For one strong example, examine Hebrews 11:35: “Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release that they might rise again to a better life.” Nowhere in the Protestant Old Testament can this story be found. One must look to a Catholic Bible to read the story in 2 Maccabees 7.

5. But the book of Judith says that Nebuchadnezzar was king of the Assyrians, when he was really king of the Babylonians. If a book has errors, it can’t be inspired.

In reading Scripture, it is imperative that we understand the genre of the work. Is it a historical passage? An apocalyptic one? A parable? A proverb? Knowing this influences how the book should be read. When Jesus says that the mustard seed is the smallest of seeds (Matt.13:32), he is not providing a treatise on botany. After all, there are seeds smaller than the mustard seed. When Jesus spoke in parables, the people understood that he was telling a story, and they did not expect it to conform to historical or scientific precision.

The same goes with the book of Judith. “Judith” means “lady Jew,” and she personifies the nation of Israel, as “Nebuchadnezzar, king of the Assyrians” personifies the enemies of the nation. The Jews of the time were aware that Nebuchadnezzar was not the king of the Assyrians but that the Babylonians and Assyrians were two of the nation’s worst foes joined into one by the author of Judith for the sake of parable.

6. Which translation did the first Christians use?

Early Christians read the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint. It included the seven deuterocanonical books. For this reason, the Protestant historian J.N.D. Kelly writes, “It should be observed that the Old Testament thus admitted as authoritative in the Church was somewhat bulkier and more comprehensive [than the Protestant Bible]. . . . It always included, though with varying degrees of recognition, the so-called apocrypha or deuterocanonical books” (, 53). The authors of the New Testament quoted freely from the Septuagint—over 300 times.

7. Didn’t Jerome and Augustine disagree about the deuterocanonical books?

Yes, as did other early Christians. Numerous Church Fathers quoted the deuterocanonical books as Scripture (see The Old Testament Canon ), while some did not.

Jerome appears to have rejected most of the deuterocanonical parts of Scripture. But he did accept portions and included all seven books in his Latin translation of Scripture, known as the Vulgate. Ultimately, he recognized that the Church alone had the authority to determine the canon.

Since there was disagreement between some Church Fathers, it became obvious that no individual could provide an infallible list of inspired books. The bottom line: “We have no other assurance that the books of Moses, the four Gospels, and the other books are the true word of God,” wrote Augustine, “but by the canon of the Catholic Church.”

Since it is unreasonable to expect every person to read all of the books of antiquity and judge for himself if they are inspired, the question boils down to whose authority is to be trusted in this matter. One must either trust a rabbinical school that rejected the New Testament 60 years after Christ established a Church, or one must trust the Church he established.

Which deserves our trust? Martin Luther makes a pertinent observation in the sixteenth chapter of his Commentary on St. John “We are obliged to yield many things to the papists [Catholics]—that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it.”



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[k2206]

Umeandika vizuri japo kuna makosa kidogo ya kimtazamo umeyafanya mwanzoni mwa mada yako umeomba mjadala huu usijadiliwe kidini wakati unazungumzia kitabu cha dini nadhan sio sahihi kuijadili biblia na vitabu vyake kwakutumia historia,vitabu vya biblia hujadiliwa kwa kutumia maandiko ya Mungu Mwenyewe dhidi ya maandiko yake mwenyewe
Mfano.......
1.Mungu Mwenyewe kasema yeye sio mwandishi wa mkanganyiko (AUTHOR OF CONFUSSION)
1 wakolintho 14:33,soma biblia ya KJV ndio utapata maana nzuri zaidi '33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints " Kwahiyo kama Mungu kasema sio mwandishi wa kuchanganya bali wa amani kwa kanisa loote la watakatifu wake kamwe mkanganyiko wowote utakao husisha maandiko yake umetengenezwa na yule adui mwovu shetani kwa lengo la kuvuruga uelewa wa watu

2.Mungu sio mwanadamu mpaka aseme uongo
Hesabu 23:19

sasa kwakutumia hizo nguzo mbili hapo tunaweza tukavichambua vitabu hivyo vilivyozidi zaidi ya hapo 66 kwenye hiyo biblia ya kiprotestant kama ulivyoiweka, sasa kwa haraka haraka ipo hivi,maandiko mengi kwenye biblia yanatengeneza kitu kinaitwa "HARMONY" yaani yanatengeneza muunganiko flani mmoja yanaungana mkono na hayapingani yenyewe kwa yenyewesababu yoote yametoka kwa Mungu mmoja,mfano kuna zile amri 10 za Mungu kwenye kitabu cha kutoka 20,utakuta kuanzia pale hadi mwisho wa biblia vitabu vingine vinaendelea kuzirejea,kuzikumbushia,kuzisistiza nk kwahiyo kama kikitokea kitabu cha ziada cha hapo 66 kinatakiwa kiungane mkono pafectly na vitabu vingine 66!

1. Naanza na kitabu cha HENOKO(ENOCH)
Ukisoma kitabu cha Yuda 1:14 kinasema hivi "
"Na Henoko, mtu wa saba baada ya Adamu, alitoa maneno ya unabii juu ya hao, akisema, Angalia, Bwana alikuja na watakatifu wake, maelfu maelfu,
15 ili afanye hukumu juu ya watu wote, na kuwaadhibisha wote wasiomcha Mungu, kwa ajili ya kazi zao zote za upotevu walizozitenda bila kumcha Mungu, na kwa ajili ya maneno magumu yote ambayo hao wenye dhambi wasiomcha Mungu wameyanena juu yake.
Sasa swali linakuja hivi huu unabii wa Henoko (yule aliyepaishwa na Mungu kwenda mbinguni) umeandikwa wapi katika biblia hiyo ya vitabu 66 mpaka nabii Yuda akaunukuu????,inamaana hadi huyu nabii Yuda anaunukuu kuna mahala umeandikwa kama vile tu walivyokuwa wananukuu torati ya Musa sababu iliandikwa kwenye vile vitabu vya Musa!
Ukweli ni kwamba kuna kitabu cha HENOKO na ndio kuna huu unabii amabo mtume YUDA alikuwa ananukuu,haya maneno ya YUDA hayapatikani popote kwenye biblia Henoko alipoyasema zaidi ya kwenye kitabu chake alichoandika .

itaendelea..

Nakubali mkuu kuwa KITABU CHA ENOCK kipo ingawa baadhi ya biblia zimekitoa.

So sad.

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[Tz mbongo]

Halafu tunaambiwa na Qur'an imecopy humo.

 

[Damaso]

UTANGULIZI
Historia ya Biblia ya kikristo ni ndefu jinsi vitabu vilivyopatikana lakini ntaandika kwa kifupi sana na mengine tutaandaika tunavyozidi kuchangia kwenye uzi huu. Na pia nitoe rai mapema kuwa uzi huu sio wa kidini bali wa kielimu/historia hivyo sitegemei watu kurushiana matusi ya kuhusu dini sijui Mungu yupo au hayupo!! N.k
View attachment 993939
Prologue
Biblia ya kikristo ni mjumuiko wa vitabu mbalimbali vya manabii/Mitume wa Mungu ambao vimejumuishwa pamoja ili kutoa muongozo wa kiimani kwa wakristo kote ulimwenguni. Biblia inatambulika kama iliandikwa na vitabu kujumuishwa kwa uweza wa MUNGU hivyo ni kitabu kitakatifu, lakini kilichonishtua ni kugundua kwamba kati ya wakristo wanatumia Biblia tofauti kabisa yaani Wakatoliki Biblia yao ina vitabu 73, waprotestant vitabu 66, Orthodox Tawahedo (Ethiopia) ina vitabu 81 hili limenifanya nifungue uzi ili tumalize mkanganyiko huu na naomba tusome taratibu na kwakuelewa mada inazungumzia nini kabla ya kuchangia kwa kuongozwa na ushabiki au mihemko.

Historia
Wayahudi (Israel) walikuwa wanaandika maandiko wanayovuviwa na Mungu wao Yahweh tokea miaka 600 kabla ya Yesu na walikuwa na fixed canon ya vitabu 24 (39 ukivigawa) mpaka kipindi cha nabii wa mwisho Malachi 400 BC hivyo inasemekana ndio vitabu pekee vilivyokuwepo. kufikia karne ya 4 kabla ya kristo (KK) wayahudi waliokuwa uhamishoni hasa misri walitafsiri vitabu vya agano la kale vilivyoandikwa kiebrania kwenda kigiriki na kuzaa Biblia iliofahamika kama ''Septuagint''.... Biblia hii ilipata ushawishi sana kuliko ya kiebrania na ieleweke kwamba ni Biblia hii ndio imetumika mpaka na Yesu alipokuwa akinakili maandiko ya agano la kale kiufupi 70% ya quotes kutoka agano la kale kwenye vitabu vya Agano jipya vimetolewa kwenye Greek Septuagint. Kufikia hapa kukawepo na Biblia mbili kuu hivyo twende pamoja.
View attachment 993940
Mgogoro
Ikumbukwe Septuagint ilijumuisha vitabu vya kimafundisho ambavyo Hebrew bible haikuvitambua vitabu hivi vinajumuisha Macabees, Sirach,Wisdom of solomon n.k. Sasa ikafika mahali Septuagint (kigiriki) ikawa inatumika zaidi kuliko maandiko ya kiebrania (wayahudi) hivyo kwa mujibu wa mwanahistoria Heinrich Graetz ikabidi kikundi cha wayahudi kikutane kwa kilichoitwa council of Jamnia kilichofanyika 70 Baada ya kristo ambapo ndio kiliweka msimamo wa vitabu gani vya biblia ya kiebrania ndio vitambulike kwa wayahudi wote yote hii ili kuzuia upepo wa Biblia ya Greek sepruagint na hivyo hapa wakawa na msimamo wa vitabu vichache hasa vya agano la kale 39 tofauti na 46 vya septuagint. Hivyo tokea hapa madhehebu tofauti ya kikristo yakachukua Biblia mojawapo ya pande hizi mfano RC wao waliendelea na Greek Septuagint ambayo ndio ilitumiwa na mitume ila waprotestant wao waliamua kuendelea na Hebrew Bible wakiamini ndio halali na haijachakachuliwa pia madhehebu mengine kma Tawahedo Orthodox na mengineo yalikuwa na misimamo yao juu ya vitabu fulani hivyo utakuta baadhi ya makanisa yana vitabu kati ya hivyo 39 hadi 46 vya agano la kale.

Martin Luther
Karne ya 16 kiongozi wa wanamabadiliko/protestants walioamua kujitenga na ukatoliki Dr. Martin Luther naye aliamua kufanya tafsiri ya Biblia kwenda lugha ya kijerumani. Kiliandikwa 1520-34 na katika kuifanyia majumuisho naye alitaka kupunguza vitabu 7 vya agano jipya vikiwemo Ufunuo,Yuda,Waebrania na Yakobo n.k kwa kile alichokiita kwamba "havikuwa na uvuvio wa Roho mtakatifu" na hata leo hii kwenye Luther bible cha waprotestant hivyo vitabu 4 vimewekwa vya mwisho kabisa katika biblia yao na nakala za mwanzoni viliwekwa kundi moja na vitabh vilivyoitwa ''apocrypha''.

Pia luther alikipinga vikali kitabu cha esther nakutaka kifutwe kutoka kwa Biblia. Alisema hakina uvuvio wa Roho mtakatifu maana hakuna mahala kinamtaja MUNGU!! Martin luther alipinga pia uwepo wa kitabu cha James/Yakobo kwenye Biblia sabau kwanza kiliandikwa karne ya 2 ambapo muandishi wanayedai ni Yakobo kaka yake yesu alishakuwa amekufa toka mwaka 67 BK hivyo aliona kma ni kilifojiwa tu.
View attachment 993938

HITIMISHO
Sasa baada ya kuwa nimepitia baadhi ya hoja za wana JF humu hasa zinazogusa maslahi ya kikristo huwa wana conclude kuwa Biblia haina makosa maana ilivuviwa na Roho mtakatifu sasa nilikuwa nataka wajuzi mnisaidia maswali yafuatayo

1.je kauli hii inapotolewa huwa ina maana ya Biblia ipi ambayo ilivuviwa na Roho?

2. Je Biblia gani ni halali

3. Manabii wanasema usiongeze au kupunguza neno kwenye Vitabu vyao sasa Je kama mmoja ndio yupo sahihi ina maana wengi wamepotoshwa??

4. Na kama wamepotoshwa je nini hatma ya ukristo kama wahuni wachache wanaweza ongeza maneno au kupunguza kwenye Biblia

5. Swali la mwisho naamini MUNGU anaona haya makosa Je ina maana karuhusu neno lake lipotoshwe?? Na kama sio kwanini mpaka sasa kaacha wahuni wachezee NENO lake.

Naomba kuwasilisha

Cc: ningeomba Moderator kina Active na Mhariri msihamishe uzi huu jukwaa la dini ili niweze kupata mawazo ya wana JF wote hta wasio na access na jukwaa la dini, nitashukuru kwa hilo.

Mm ni mkristo kwenye dhehebu la Roman Catholic ila kuna wakati hata biblia naanza kuhisi imechakachuliwa balaa. Kibaya ni kwamba viongozi wanatetea nyufa zilizomo ndani ya baadhi ya mistari ya biblia.
Divinity ya biblia inasidi kupotea kila baada ya muda unavyozidi kwenda....

 

[MAKOSHNELI]

Mm ni mkristo kwenye dhehebu la Roman Catholic ila kuna wakati hata biblia naanza kuhisi imechakachuliwa balaa. Kibaya ni kwamba viongozi wanatetea nyufa zilizomo ndani ya baadhi ya mistari ya biblia.
Divinity ya biblia inasidi kupotea kila baada ya muda unavyozidi kwenda....

nyufa hizo kama zipi ulizoziona ww? ziweke hapa tuzijadili