If our President has more than one wife: The question of human rights

[BAK]

What's good for the goose is good for the gander!!

Njemba hazikawii kununa na kuleta kasheshe nyumbani zikiambiwa kweli.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Katila Mkumbo: “If a man wants to marry hundreds wives let him do so, so long as there are wives wanting to be treated as such”.

Ukiukwaj wa haki za binadamu ni kosa hata kama wanaoonewa wanakubali. Kwa mfano, wako watoto wadogo wanaoajiriwa na kufanya kazi ngumu kwa hiari yao, lakini bado kuna ukiukwaji wa haki za binadamau.

Mzalendo Halisi: “Kwa hiyo unashauri wenye wake zao wawili au watatu kwa sasa wawaache wake zao? Kwa nini? Watoto walelewe na nani? na hao wake wamekosa nini?” ”Je lipi zuri? Homosexuality or polygamy”?

Wenye wake zao wasiwaache. Kinachotakiwa ni sisi kupiga vita hiyo tabia ya kuoa wake zaidi ya mmoja. Kuna maji ambayo yameshamwagika. Sasa tuzuie kuendeleza hii kawada mbaya. As to whether homosexuality is better than polygamy, I would say we do not have to choose between two aberrations. It is possible to practice neither homosexuality nor polygamy.

Nyani Ngabu: “Ingekuwa wanalazimishwa kuchangia mume mmoja hapo mimi na wewe tungekubaliana. Lakini kama wanachangia huyo mume kwa hiari yao basi sina tatizo”.

Nilishajibu hii hoja. Angalia jibu nililompa Katila Mkumbo.


Sober: “huku kudharau kila mila yako na kuabudu cha west, sijui tutafika wapi... Vipo vitu vya kuiga lakini sio kila kitu. Ni wapi pameonyeshwa hao wanawake wa west wako happier kwenye ndoa zao kuliko wanawake wa kiafrika waliokua kwenye ndoa za mitala?....... utumwa wa fikra ni hatari kuliko ufukara!”

Zamani ilikuweko mila ya kuua mmja kati ya mapacha. Tumeiacha kwani ilikuwa mbaya. Mila ya kuoa wake wengi mbaya vile vile, tuiache.

Huko nyuma, uonevu uliwafanya wanawake wa Kiafrika wakae kimya. Hiyo haikuwa furaha. Wale wa kisasa wanaonekana kuhoji mambo, na ukimdhalilisha mno anaondoka.

Kuna utumwa wa fikara kwamba kuoa wake wengi ni sawa. Si sawa.

SMU : “Whether polygamy is bad or good, I think is a more of a personal opinion than of fact. I don't think there is any scientific reason of why polygamy is necessarily a bad thing.”

It is a mater of human rights, and that is not personal. It is a societal issue.

Waberoya: “Kitila uishofu, rais wetu anatuwakilisha wengi sana, wengi wana nyumba ndogo mkuu na wanaficha! yeye Kikwete naye yumo humohumo".


We do not like to be ruled by a promiscuous person. A President ought to be a man of character.
Bongolander:Polygamy is inseparable part of islam and we all know that our constitution allows us to worship freely and practice what our religions want us to do. I do not know why you say this is a primitive act.

It cannot be true that religion is an inseparable part of Islam. I know many Moslems who are married to one spouse. Polygamy is primitive because it is a bad import from the past. It no longer fits into the modern concept of equal dignity between men and women.

Sidhani kama ajira ya watoto inalingana na hili la kuoa wake zaidi ya mmoja. Watoto ni watoto. Most of them don't know any better. On the other hand, two, three, four, or five consenting adults are presumed to know better. Now, whether they really know any better to make their own informed decisions or not, that is up to them but there has to be a cut off line somewhere and that's why we have these classifications i.e. children, young adults, adults, etc.

I still don't see any human rights that are violated in a polygamous marriage. Maybe, if you could, please help me shed some light on this by specifically stating the rights that are violated when adults consent to it.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Njemba hazikawii kununa na kuleta kasheshe nyumbani zikiambiwa kweli.

Sasa hiyo haitakuwa haki.

 

[Augustine Moshi]

Nyani Ngabu asks which human rights are violated by polygamy. It is the right of womenfolk to have equal dignity with men. You can see, can you not, that it is not possible for a man and a woman to be equal partners in marriage if the man has more than one such partner? If one man has the same amount of dignity as several women, then that man is not equal in dignity to any one of the women.

Kinyambisi states that our President’s promiscuity reflects the promiscuity of Tanzanians. May be it does, but that does not make it any more acceptable. If our President is a true reflection of Tanzanians then how come he does not reflect their poverty?

Polygamy is selfish. Only a selfish man would want to have several women belonging to him alone, as wives. It is also primitive. It results from a primitive mindset that a man has to have many cows, children and wives.

 

[Interested Observer]

Under normal circumstances (everything is constant), sitofurahia mwenzi wangu kuwa na mke wa pili.

Pale nitakapoona mapenzi yangu kwa mwenzi wangu hayapo tena kwa sababu yeyote ile iwayo i.e menopause; nitamwambia atafute mapenzi somewhere..akipenda aoe, akipenda atafute nyumba ndogo au hata hit-and-run. Sitopenda kumdhulumu mume wangu kwa kutompa penzi 100%. Yakipungua nitamwambia..ee bana eeh, naona mapenzi yangu kwako yamepungua au yamekwisha. Atajua cha kufanya.

Pale nitakapokuwa incapacitated mathalan kwa ugonjwa (Mungu apishie mbali baharini) nitamruhusu mume wangu atafute either mke au hawara au vyovyote atakavyopenda. Kwa wakati huu atahitaji sexual satisfaction, msaada wa malezi ya watoto na vitu vingine ambavyo sitaweza kumsaidia.

Pale nitakapoona msichana ana tabia nzuri na kujiheshimu, anapenda kuwa watoto lkn hajapata wa kuzaa nae, nitamwomba mume wangu amwoe huyo bint kama bint mwenyewe atakubali, ili naye afurahie mapenzi katika maisha na kuwa na watoto.

Kama atahitaji kuwa na watoto zaidi, na mimi sina uwezo wa kumzalia, basi sitaihini nafsi yake wala matamanio yake ya watoto. Nitamwambia aoe na akitaka nitamtafutia.

Kama mume wangu ana sexual drive ambayo siwezi kuihimili, sitasita kumwambia aoe mke mwingine..ya nini kumtesa umpendae? Mwache afanye kinachomridhisha.

Kuamua kubaki kwenye ndoa yenye mke mwingine, hilo ni suala langu binafsi. Moja, kama bado nampenda mume wangu na yeye anatamani mwanamke mwingine, na akanieleza wazi, nitamruhusu aoe. Na nitaendelea kuwa mke provided huyo mwanamke siishi nae nyumba moja.


Ambacho sitakivumilia ni kuoa, kuwa na nyumba ndogo au kuhit-and-run bila kunifahamisha. Siku nikigundua, sijui nitamfanya nini kwani nitamwona mnafiki....na asiyenipenda. May be anakaa na mimi kwa sababu fulani fulani kama kulinda social status na sio kujali feelings zangu.

Yes, but do not call it African way; it is your way!!

 

[Interested Observer]

Mr. Moshi... wake up! Recognize what Tanzania is. We are primitive..lol The majority of people are. Our president is promiscuous just like the majority of us (Tanzanians) are.. Siongelei wabeba maboxi.. Rural Tanzania.

Kyambiss
Be serious here, it is really primitive in nature, an old culture; so the majority including our own president; don't you think we are a nation in peril? From such falling family values how do you focus a Tanzania after 20 years; have you thought of things how will they be in a rising global gap between nations which are embracing backward thinking and those with positive thinking? My fellow Tanzanians take this as a very serious issue of a century; our development is centered in our own families; strong cultured families; with education and who can transform into meaningful development.

 

[Interested Observer]

Sidhani kama ajira ya watoto inalingana na hili la kuoa wake zaidi ya mmoja. Watoto ni watoto. Most of them don't know any better. On the other hand, two, three, four, or five consenting adults are presumed to know better. Now, whether they really know any better to make their own informed decisions or not, that is up to them but there has to be a cut off line somewhere and that's why we have these classifications i.e. children, young adults, adults, etc.

I still don't see any human rights that are violated in a polygamous marriage. Maybe, if you could, please help me shed some light on this by specifically stating the rights that are violated when adults consent to it.

Nyani com'n; there is no age gap which can be defined between victims of Child labour and victims of polygamy; they are mostly between the age of 12 to below 18. A mature woman in early or late 20s is rare to fall into such a practice; also the polygamists know very well their preys; little girls! (Note that in most of our societies woman can marry at anytime when they have their first periods). It is difficult to seduce a grown up woman into polygamy!

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Nyani Ngabu asks which human rights are violated by polygamy. It is the right of womenfolk to have equal dignity with men. You can see, can you not, that it is not possible for a man and a woman to be equal partners in marriage if the man has more than one such partner? If one man has the same amount of dignity as several women, then that man is not equal in dignity to any one of the women.

Kinyambisi states that our President’s promiscuity reflects the promiscuity of Tanzanians. May be it does, but that does not make it any more acceptable. If our President is a true reflection of Tanzanians then how come he does not reflect their poverty?

Polygamy is selfish. Only a selfish man would want to have several women belonging to him alone, as wives. It is also primitive. It results from a primitive mindset that a man has to have many cows, children and wives.

I disagree. The man and the women can be equal partners in a polygamous relationship. What makes you think they can't and what makes you think they will have less dignity if they share a man? I don't think that their dignity will somehow be divvied up if they enter such a relationship. Each individual in the relationship will have the same amount of dignity as the others.

 

[Kinyambiss]

Polygamy is not an issue at all. It is a thing to be left to the discretion of the contracting parties. Would you have it prohibited by legislation? For one, it would never work due to the provisions of Islamic Holy Book, which allows people to marry up to 4 wives. Above 35% of Tanzanians consider it to be the paramount legal source above the constitution so unless Parliament can amend the Quran, this argument is a waste of cyberspace because the State would never part-take in advocating for the creation laws that infringe the religious rights of a considerable segment of society.

Tanzanian society would not accept such a radical shift marriage law, particluarly because it does not reflect the reality of the relevant society. Sijui kwanini hamuelewi.

Mfano, there is no doubt in my mind, particularly having had access to academic writings on the topic, (both medical and legal), that people have a right to be gay. And even in the most strict and conservative societies there are homosexuals. But I would never agree to allowing gay marriage or even legalizing homosexuality which is criminal in Tanzania. This not because I believe that it is a crime, no, but solely because society is not ready for it and perhaps in 30-40 years it will be. The same for polygamy with one notable difference. It would infringe the rights of Muslims in Tanzania, if it were to be banned. And as we all know, haha!, Islam is the most static religious believe around. It is not dynamic and by that assertion, in 40, 50, 500 years... It will still allow people to marry up to 4 wives.

I think the issue here is being judged from one cultural perspective, that of the West. That, in my opinion, is ill informed of the author who for some reason or other seems to overlook the fact that Tanzania holds a myriad of cultural influences including western, African as well as Eastern ideas. For instance during marriage, it is currently popular practice to have a religious ceremony (christian or muslim) then have a reception party, usually with a western theme.. But at the same time the bride is, shortly prior to the wedding (anafundwa, in what is termed a kitchen party) lakini the issues associated with the ceremony bare little resemblance to its western namesake. In alternate, a muslim bride will normally get hena painting, and later have a western (white) dress ceremony after the (green dress) wedding has occured, usually a day afterwards. When you see the Hena and the white dress that a caucasian woman would wear on her wedding, then you know what Tanzania is.... Mseto

NAMUOMBA author wa hii thread, azingatie culture mbali mbali tulizonazo Tanzania wakati akisema polygamy is an old practice... and should be discarded..

It cant be discarded because so many Tanzanians do it. Usitake kutulazimisha kukubali some secular view of the matter which is inherently inconsistent with the life of the average Tanzanian.. Wake UP!

 

[Interested Observer]

Kinyambiss;
Understand that when I am discussing this issue I am neither making s reference to christianity nor Islamic ways of lives. Note that in our constitution there is a freedom of worship but not the consolidation of christian or islamic cultures. There is a difinite explanation that people who live in this country can worship what they want. A government can not chhose your faith. I more detailed way the government enforcing our constitution have stated very very clear; government have no religion. By saying that automatically our constitution is not influenced by faith/worship.

Weak leaders, and weak people especially at our higher level of leardership are the ones who have to enforce those lawys and create more laws to spearhead the nation development to create a nation of high personalities. Unfortnately instead of these peolpe we rely on our law formulation and enhancement endup breaking these laws. For example; if the IGP or a president is a polygamist what do you expect on law enforcement? We endup saying this is according to religion.

Another issue here; as I said before; when I discuss these issues I am presenting myself as a Tanzanian; christianity and islam all were brought here centuries ago. Not only Tanzania (Africa) have such religions. In Asia for example or Maghreb they have separated the Law of the Land and religion matters. Only few ciountries follow a Quran or a Bible; maybe negligible. In Tanzania we follow our constitution, and we can ammend our constitution according to our national needs not according to a Bible or a Quran.

Before old guys ended as polygamists because they wanted to supplement their own sexual desires with young women. But now even young men are following the samples. They forget that marriage is bigger picture and is not only sex; we need to keep love; raise children who are healthy; who can contribute to the nation. In this way even a nation benefits from a love from family cores. Have you thought of our unwanted marriages, single mothers, orphan children, uneducated children who will endup uneducated and unwanted? These will be a danger to our own environment.

Lack of development lessen a chance for more activities in our societies. The most easier activity for people to practice has become sex it doesn't need too much work; and men in order to practice it better they enslave women as sex slaves (concubines) in the name of polygamy.

A nation with no laws protecting women and children is a nation in peril!

 

[Kinyambiss]

You misunderstand my point... Suppose that polygamy was wrong, and by no means am I saying that it is, how do you suggest we get rid of it under the Tanzanian constitution?

Remember that the constitution was written to fit a society that already existed, notwithstanding the normal dynamics of that society that have until thus emerged. When the constitution was written they considered polygamy and saw fit to allow it in recognition of the diversity that we have in Tanzania. Before we engage in a discussion as to the merits and demerits of polygamy. I challenge you to suggest a plausible way in which it would be able to dispose of the system as it currently exists in Tanzania!

Karibu.....

 

[Interested Observer]

You misunderstand my point... Suppose that polygamy was wrong, and by no means am I saying that it is, how do you suggest we get rid of it under the Tanzanian constitution?

Remember that the constitution was written to fit a society that already existed, notwithstanding the normal dynamics of that society that have until thus emerged. When the constitution was written they considered polygamy and saw fit to allow it in recognition of the diversity that we have in Tanzania. Before we engage in a discussion as to the merits and demerits of polygamy. I challenge you to suggest a plausible way in which it would be able to dispose of the system as it currently exists in Tanzania!

Karibu.....

The first population censor in Tanzania was in 1967 (independent Tanzania)
Population was 12 million people
In all population counting there is no an official mention of Christains population or Muslim Population. Only unofficial Pagani represented a big majority.

Please do not bring religion as a core of our constitution!

 

[Kinyambiss]

1)Are you telling me that it was not taken into consideration when drafting the constitution?

2) Ngoja nikuandikie kwa Kiswahili labda ndio utanijibu maana hapo juu naona umechuna,lol

Naomba pendekezo lako juu ya jinisi gani kuondoa katika nchi yetu Tanzania, ndoa kati ya mwanaume na wanawake zaidi ya mmoja. Tafadhali zingatia wigo wa jibu lako lizingatie msimamo wakisheria ulivyo na hasa kikatiba na kutoa mapendekezo ya mabadiliko yakikatiba ambayo tutalazimika kuyafanya ili tuweze kufanikisha kuondoa "polygamy". Ahsante.....

 

[Kinyambiss]

Naziada kumbuka post yangu ya nyuma niliongelea mila na jadi za asili pamoja na dini kuwa moja ya sababu ya kuwa na utaratibi kama ulivyo, na nikasema itakuwa vigumu kubadilisha utaratibu huu bila kukandamiza haki za makundi fulani fulani katika jamii yetu. Sikua na nia yakuanzisha mjadala juu ya masuala yakidini bali nilimaanisha kukufungua macho kuhusu aina ya jamii tuliyonayo Tanzania na masuala ambayo yanajenga misingi ya jamii hiyo, ikatokea kuwa dini ikawa moja wapo ya masuala hayo. Nasubiri mapendekezo yako kama nilivyoyaomba hapo juu.

 

[Interested Observer]

kinyambiss asks
"Suppose that polygamy was wrong, and by no means am I saying that it is, how do you suggest we get rid of it under the Tanzanian constitution?"
======
Here your question does not exist! There is nothing in our constitution which encourages polygamy. But we need more laws to consolidate laws in protecting women and children. A statement by a government to abolish polygamy is very important. Also enact laws to protect abuse of women and children. Foir example the responsibility of parents towards their children upbringing. You can't deny the result of sex (making love) when you love practicing it my the name of religion. No religion advocates discard of children and oppression of women.

But if we can choose a president who practices polygamy, and his IGP and others in law enforcement doing the same do you think we can make such laws endorsed? We have a very long way to go!

Believe it countries development come through law abiding and strong families which originate from disciplined citizens. A country without disciplined learders will never develop!

 

[Kinyambiss]

Now I see.. Ur a feminist.lol... ok!

 

[Interested Observer]

Now I see.. Ur a feminist.lol... ok!

Now I see through your sexual urge, you want to discriminate women and children! And morever you want all men follow the same weaknesses!

 

[Interested Observer]

Naziada kumbuka post yangu ya nyuma niliongelea mila na jadi za asili pamoja na dini kuwa moja ya sababu ya kuwa na utaratibi kama ulivyo, na nikasema itakuwa vigumu kubadilisha utaratibu huu bila kukandamiza haki za makundi fulani fulani katika jamii yetu. Sikua na nia yakuanzisha mjadala juu ya masuala yakidini bali nilimaanisha kukufungua macho kuhusu aina ya jamii tuliyonayo Tanzania na masuala ambayo yanajenga misingi ya jamii hiyo, ikatokea kuwa dini ikawa moja wapo ya masuala hayo. Nasubiri mapendekezo yako kama nilivyoyaomba hapo juu.

But can you please mention at least two advantages of polygamy other than these:
1. religion
2. avoiding AIDS by having your partners bonded
3. Cultural

Do you love women you make love with? Or you make sex just to satisfy your libido? let's go practically here!

Note one issue; if you lived those Nyerere times; in 1977/78 when announcing a budget subsidy he said; he was going to relieve tax as follows:
1. For a wife 40 TSHS
2. For children 10 TSHS for every child up to 4 children
When he was asked; he explained very clear; Government recognizes only one wife and can only help 4 children! If you cannot remember then I cananot force you.

Believe that our learders know well everything about our lwas but they know how to bend them.

 

[Kinyambiss]

No. I just did not know from what point of view you were arguing. I believe that women are very strong and I believe in equal rights for all but I am speaking of polygamy in this case. And where there is a clash between culture and human rights, then the normal legal tool used is an anlysis of the pros n cons of the cultural vs the Human rights concerns..

In Tanzania s.9 of the Law of Marriage Act, (a rather controversial piece of legislation, the Act i.e) marriage of a polygamous kind is sanctioned so a governement statement, will not suffice, I'm sorry to say, oh actually I am not!

9.-(l) Marriage means the voluntary union of a man and a woman,
intended to last for their joint lives.
(2) A monogamous marriage is a union between one man and one
woman to the exclusion of all others.
(3) A polygamous marriage is a union in which the husband may
during the subsistence, of the marriage be married to or marry another
woman or women.
10.-(1) Marriages shall be of two kinds, that is to say- Kinds of
(a) those that are monogamous or are intended to be monogamous; and
(b) those that are polygamous or are potentially polygamous.

The reason this Act has not been amended is because, although it seems to infringe on women's rights (thus Unconstitutional) regarding mainly the age of marrige... Lets not get into that one.. is because there is a segment of society that sanctions it.

Swala la IGP, President sijui nani... kuwa in a very legal polygamous marriage sio tatizo kwasababu society accepts it. If it did not, they would not do it. SO it is not you, my friend that decides what is right or wrong but society... and as far as this one is concerned...... Society allows it. Until Parliament says otherwise.. The only problem being Parliament is Society..

 

[Interested Observer]

At least now we are in a clear picture; not a question of a bible or a Quran; thank you.
It is the question of a government- thank you a lot; you presented it very clear.

The only issue we have to argue is; you are saying it is sanctioned by society; but please can you give samples if a referendum will be made today; who will support polygamy and who will oppose? In my view, from my knowldge - Most educated young peolpe (religious or not religious), will oppose polygamy. Old religious people will oppose; but old uneducated and young uneducated may endorse it. Most women will oppose!

So as this issue is not a religion concern therefore a government statement is very important.