Hivi SGR ya Kenya ni kwa ajili ya Watalii au Wakenya wa kawaida?

kennedy0000 said:
Are you saying those 30k cars would not be paying 18 bob per liter of fuel if Thika road was not built and they had to use other roads instead?
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No, am saying thika road expansion made it possible to have 30k cars daily on the road from possibly 10k cars previously..Those extra 20k vehicles that now use thikaroad are each paying 18bob per liter and turning a handsome profit for GoK..Previously thos cars would be parked unable to navigate the Jam
 
Mkikuyu- Akili timamu said:
No, am saying thika road expansion made it possible to have 30k cars daily on the road from possibly 10k cars previously..Those extra 20k vehicles that now use thikaroad are each paying 18bob per liter and turning a handsome profit for GoK..Previously thos cars would be parked unable to navigate the Jam
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Thika road did not make people buy cars. They would have bought anyway.
Also, the cars that use Thika road also use other roads in Kenya. So for you to say that 18 bob fuel levy is going to pay for Thika road, you're just refusing to think.
Tax collected from whatever source goes not funding the entire budget.

"Economist" like you and your mentor David Ndii are the ones who have been lying to people that the SGR was supposed to pay for itself from fares, yet you know the indirect economic gains are greater.
 
Mkikuyu- Akili timamu said:
Thika road is not managed by chinese to the tune of 1 bn per month, neither is any cargo on Thika road subsidized by taxpayers.
You cannot compare oranges and apples
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What Im getting from your argument is if you were to do a profit or loss analysis on the Thika Road project you will have to factor in fuel levy collected as income.

Using that school of thought then the same should apply to SGR.... losses incurred by Kenya railways should as well be discounted by the Railway development levy collected by the Government especially since before the SGR that levy did not exist!!!
 
kennedy0000 said:
Thika road did not make people buy cars. They would have bought anyway.
Also, the cars that use Thika road also use other roads in Kenya. So for you to say that 18 bob fuel levy is going to pay for Thika road, you're just refusing to think.
Tax collected from whatever source goes not funding the entire budget.

"Economist" like you and your mentor David Ndii are the ones who have been lying to people that the SGR was supposed to pay for itself from fares, yet you know the indirect economic gains are greater.
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No, thika road did not make people to buy cars, it made the use of the road more attractive and many opened their wallets to pay 18bob per liter to GoK to enjoy the convinience..Thika road's profitability is driven by its own business case..its cheap to use, cheap to maintain and though there are many ways to reach nairobi from thika, its still the most efficient..
SGR on the other hand is expensive than road, expensive to maintain, inconvinient to cargo owners and relys on taxpayer money for subsidy
 
Mkikuyu- Akili timamu said:
No, thika road did not make people to buy cars, it made the use of the road more attractive and many opened their wallets to pay 18bob per liter to GoK to enjoy the convinience..Thika road's profitability is driven by its own business case..its cheap to use, cheap to maintain and though there are many ways to reach nairobi from thika, its still the most efficient..
SGR on the other hand is expensive than road, expensive to maintain, inconvinient to cargo owners and relys on taxpayer money for subsidy
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All that you've mentioned about Thika road is also true for the SGR.
It has been built to make it attractive and easier to transport goods for export and import. The Naivasha section is actually heading to a planned industrial zone.
Rail is cheaper and much convenient to use for cargo. Logistics bottlenecks right now are mostly down to inexperience and will not last forever.

And for your info, we spend over sh1 billion every year to maintain Thika road, without any direct returns.
SGR on the other hand has both direct and indirect returns.
 
Gwizzy said:
What Im getting from your argument is if you were to do a profit or loss analysis on the Thika Road project you will have to factor in fuel levy collected as income.

Using that school of thought then the same should apply to SGR.... losses incurred by Kenya railways should as well be discounted by the Railway development levy collected by the Government especially since before the SGR that levy did not exist!!!
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Thika road has made more kenyans opt to take out their cars,pay 18bob per liter to enjoy the convinience of a cheap to use (possibly Jam free) means of transport.
Has SGR provided the convinience and price point to make importers open their wallets and pay the railway levy? The answer is you pay the railway levy wherether you use the rail or not and further more you pay for fuel levy on last mile and on the diesel powered SGR as well.. All this as you pay more port charges and handling charges at nairobi ICD
 
sundoka said:
Hela nyingi sana hii. Ni kati ya 200,000/ hadi 250,000/ ya Tz. Kweli hii ni ya watalii sio wakenya kwa matumizi ya kawaida badala ya mabasi

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Watanzania huwa mnatia huruma, wengi wenu mumefungiwa kitaa bila kupata fursa ya kujua nini kinatendeka nje. Una uhakika hayo mahesabu yako umeyafanya ipasavyo, tafuta mtu akusaidie.
 
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kennedy0000 said:
All that you've mentioned about Thika road is also true for the SGR.
It has been built to make it attractive and easier to transport goods for export and import. The Naivasha section is actually heading to a planned industrial zone.
Rail is cheaper and much convenient to use for cargo. Logistics bottlenecks right now are mostly down to inexperience and will not last forever.

And for your info, we spend over sh1 billion every year to maintain Thika road, without any direct returns.
SGR on the other hand has both direct and indirect returns.
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How is it cheaper?
2TEU by SGR to nairobi ICD= 100k
2TEU by Road to Nairobi and environs(your doorstep)= 85K
If add double handling and port charges at Nairobi ICD the figure of SGR goes to 150K or thereabouts.

About thika Road: Even if the road was maintained at 10bn per year, the amount of traffic per year on that road is enough to pay off any maitenance charges..And remember the cargo and passangers on this road are not subsidized by taxpayers..To claim that there no added benefits to the economy made by thika road is to be foolish, Infact there is so little activity at SGR stations, no resturants, no shopping malls no rented office blocks..some stations see activity maximum 30 min per day as passanger board/ alight..Total waste
 
sundoka said:
Hela nyingi sana hii. Ni kati ya 200,000/ hadi 250,000/ ya Tz. Kweli hii ni ya watalii sio wakenya kwa matumizi ya kawaida badala ya mabasi
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Ksh 1,000 ni hela nyingi to a Tanzanian?! Eh! I guess all poverty is not created equal.
 
Mkikuyu- Akili timamu said:
How is it cheaper?
2TEU by SGR to nairobi ICD= 100k
2TEU by Road to Nairobi and environs(your doorstep)= 85K
If add double handling and port charges at Nairobi ICD the figure of SGR goes to 150K or thereabouts.

About thika Road: Even if the road was maintained at 10bn per year, the amount of traffic per year on that road is enough to pay off any maitenance charges..And remember the cargo and passangers on this road are not subsidized by taxpayers..To claim that there no added benefits to the economy made by thika road is to be foolish, Infact there is so little activity at SGR stations, no resturants, no shopping malls no rented office blocks..some stations see activity maximum 30 min per day as passanger board/ alight..Total waste
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Thika road doesn't contribute any direct money to the government. Only a toll road can do that.
There are indirect benefits, but for you to say that the cars passing on it would not exist if the road was never built is false. Car ownership has been growing every year in Kenya.

For the SGR, you are basing all your argument on 1 year of operation. On a line that is barely halfway complete.
Rail is cheaper than road world over, and as I said, initial logistic bottlenecks will not last forever.

The grand plan for the SGR is to use it mainly for exports. That's why it is being built close to special industrial zones. Passenger transport has never been the main reason for constructing it.
It will not pay for itself directly via fares and cargo charges. And actually very few infrastructural projects do.
 
Mkikuyu- Akili timamu said:
Passanger trains make between 1500 and 2500 loss per passager per trip.
The break even charges envisioned were
Economy: 2500
First clasz: 4500
Its a loss and nothing to be proud of.
The accumulated loss is 10bn per year not counting the ticket theft by chinese (1 million per day)
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Even Germany heavily subsidies rail transport.
In other words a loss to Kenya Railways is a gain to the individual pockets of the customer, even JPM ordered Tanesco to reduce electricity charges to household against sound financial advice that there needed to be a return on investment on capital used to build and maintain new and old power plants .



Anyway, loss of 10 billion on the first year of operation includes everything... yani what you get after you subtract revenue from expenditure.... one big factor that contributes to expenses was/is fuel expenses... but the good thing is that these operating costs will remain constant , it is estimated they will gradually rise to about 15 billion as more trains are added and they will stay there but as more cargo continues to increase the revenue will eventually outweigh the operating costs.....


In comperison, KQ which now has 40 planes has an operating cost of 56Billion ...
 
kennedy0000 said:
Thika road doesn't contribute any direct money to the government. Only a toll road can do that.
There are indirect benefits, but for you to say that the cars passing on it would not exist if the road was never built is false. Car ownership has been growing every year in Kenya.

For the SGR, you are basing all your argument on 1 year of operation. On a line that is barely halfway complete.
Rail is cheaper than road world over, and as I said, initial logistic bottlenecks will not last forever.

The grand plan for the SGR is to use it mainly for exports. That's why it is being built close to special industrial zones. Passenger transport has never been the main reason for constructing it.
It will not pay for itself directly via fares and cargo charges. And actually very few infrastructural projects do.
Click to expand...
Thika Road was actually a toll road long time ago untill the government saw it fit to have fuel levy and dismatle corrupt toll stations..Actually there is a place along thika road called Toll/ Tooro in Gikuyu just past ruiru..
I dont know who has fixed it in your head that people buy cars because of a road..The demand for new cars grows with the economy not roads..
Aboout SGR:
The Maximum combined cargo and passager trains per day is 24.. I think SGR is now doing 15 per day and already its demanding 1bn per month in subsidy..
SGR is not like a road, its limited to its traffic capacity especially since its a mono rail not a duo rail..
Here is the catch 22:
You cannot afford to expand SGR to allow more traffic to make the rail profitable
Yet, to make the rail profitable and cost per TEU cheap you need more traffic

This is just a monument like the egyptian pyramids
 
sundoka kweli hukuingia shule. 1000shillings za Kenya ni 200,000 za bongolala? Njoo ufunzwe na watoto wa Chekechea hapa Kenya... bure kabisa.
 
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