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Are all People related?

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Elimu (Education Forum)' started by MaxShimba, Jul 27, 2008.

  1. MaxShimba

    MaxShimba JF-Expert Member

    Jul 27, 2008
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    The Evidences for a Recent Dating for Adam,
    about 14,000 to 15,000 years Before Present

    A recent genetic study of human genes related to the brain concluded that possibly there appeared a "microcephalin variant (that) could have arisen anywhere from 14,000 to 60,000 years ago" and an "ASPM variant ranged from 500 to 14,000 years" ago and "roughly correlating with the development of written language, spread of agriculture and development of cities" (see more)

    Now if one assumes that the "microcephalin variant could have arisen anywhere from 14,000 to 60,000 years ago", possibly could correspond to the "Big Bang" or "Fortuitous Mutation" that Richard G. Klein refers to in his book "The Dawn of Human Culture" and says occurred about 50,000 years ago. Then, what about the "ASPM variant ranged from 500 to 14,000 years" ago and "roughly correlating with the development of written language, spread of agriculture and development of cities" as proposed.

    The Bible repeatedly says that Adam and his immediate offspring were farmers

    Genesis 2:15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and too keep it."

    Genesis 3:23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden to till the ground from whence he was taken."

    Genesis 4:2 And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground."

    Here is a review of some of the findings by archaeologists concerning farming:

    "The great majority of the cultivated plants of the world trace their origin to Asia. Out of 640 important cultivated plants, about 500 originated in Southern Asia. In Asia alone we have established five of the principle regions of cultivated plants.... The fifth region of origin in Asia is the Southwestern Asiatic centre and includes Asia Minor, Trans-Caucasia, Iran and Western Turkmenistan. This region is remarkable, first of all, for its richness in numbers of species of wheat resistant to different diseases...There is no doubt that Armenia is the chief home of cultivated wheat. Asia Minor and Trans-Caucasia gave origin to rye which is represented here by a great number of varieties and species....

    Our studies show definitely that Asia is not only the home of the majority of modern cultivated plants, but also of our chief domesticated animals such as the cow, the yak, the buffalo, sheep, goat, horse, and pig...The chief home of the cow and other cattle, the Oriental type of horse, the goat and the sheep is specifically Iran....

    As the result of a brilliant work of Dr. Sinskaya, the discovery was recently made that the home of alfalfa, the world's most important forage crop, is located in Trans-Caucasia and Iran....

    From all these definitely established facts the importance of Asia as the primary home of the greatest majority of cultivated plants and domesticated animals is quite clear."
    (Vavilov, N. , "Asia: Source of Species" in Asia, February 1937, p. 113. )

    More recent studies conducted by Melinda A Zeder and Brian Hesse (Science 287 (2000) 2254-57) place the initial domestication of goats to the Zargos Mountains at about 10,000 years ago. And Manfred Heun's (Science 278 (1997) 1312-14) studies indicate that large scale wheat cultivation began from 8,000 to 9,000 years ago near the Karacadag Mountains. Both areas are very near where the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers come close together.

    "The cradle of agriculture generally has been placed in the Jordan Valley of the southern Levant (today's Israel and Jordan). But work by Simcha Lev-Yadun of Israel's Agricultural Research Organization and colleagues suggest the first farms may have been farther north, between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in what is today northeastern Turkey and northern Syria.

    Wild progenitors of the main Neolithic founder crops (einkorn wheat, emmer wheat, barley, lentil, pea, chickpea, bitter vetch, and flax) are found together only in this small core area of the Fertile Crescent.

    Lev-Yadun reports that wild chickpea especially is extremely rare, yet it was a staple crop of Neolithic life 10,000 years ago. Agriculture, therefore, probably began in an area where chickpea is native. Archaeological evidence shows that the earliest known farming settlements of the Fertile Crescent were in this core area. Also, the limited genetic variability of these crops implies that they were domesticated only once — rather than by several different cultures at roughly the same time. Evidence of domesticated crops in the core area dates to about 10,000 years ago, while the earliest signs of farming elsewhere are about 9,300 years ago.

    Neolithic sites discovered in the core area indicate that a society with plenty of food thrived there. In sites such as Cayonu, Novali Cori, and Gobekli Tepe, impressive architecture, images, and artifacts have been found. Settlement sites are also larger in this area than many others of the same time in other parts of the Fertile Crescent. ..." (From "The Cradle of Agriculture? New Evidence Moves the World's First Farmers into Turkey" by Reagan Duplisea, articles/ 060100-turkeyfarm.shtml)

    Genesis 11:2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east,
    that they found a plain in the land of Shinar, and they dwelt there.

    "It is known that agriculture spread from the Middle East to Europe during the Neolithic period about 12,000 years ago, but for many years archeologists have debated how this occurred. Was it due to the movement of people or to the movement of ideas? Previous genetic analysis of people living today suggests a migration - that the people moved - but critics have questioned this view. The latest study reinforces evidence of a migration in which people brought their ideas and lifestyle with them."(from /2002/09/ 020911072622.htm)

    Genesis 11:9... "the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth; and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of the earth.

    "A family tree of Indo-European languages suggests they began to spread and split about 9,000 years ago. The finding hints that farmers in what is now Turkey drove the language boom - and not later Siberian horsemen, as some linguists reckon. ... Around this time, farming techniques began to spread out of Anatolia - now Turkey - across Europe and Asia, archaeological evidence shows." (From "Language tree rooted in Turkey" by John Whitfield, nsu/nsu_pf/ 031124/ 031124-6.html) (see more)

    Urartu, location of Eden, home of Adam

    Are there any other evidences ?

    Genesis 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying,
    This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands,
    because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed.
    Genesis 8:21 ... I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake: ...
    ... neither will I again smite any more every thing living, ...

    Looking at the Greenland ice core data and Lake Van varve data as follows.

    Younger-Dryas Lake Van varve data

    (note: the gray band shifts show "a time difference of 570 (GRIP) or 730 (GISP2) years between the Late Pleistocene chronozones" for the varve data." and "At around 10,500 yr B. P. (this date also has a time shift error) a conspicious layer, consisting of 7-10 dark brown, thick varves ..., was deposited in Lake Van. Biomarker analyses of this organic carbon rich layer ... showed, that the lipid fraction consist mainly of longchain alkenones ... The author concludes that Prymnesiophyceae were the primary producers and suggests that a mixing event, following a long time of stagnation, led to the enrichment of nutrients in the lake water." (from Palaeo 122(1996)p.115))

    We see a brief warm period from about 15,000 to 14,000 years ago, followed by a cooling period and then the even greater cooling of the Younger-Dryas period from about 13,500 to 12,000 years ago. Now what would greatly increase the toil of a group of farmers more than a period of severe climate? So it would seem that one could conjecture that the period of the garden of Eden was the relatively warm period of about 15,000 to 14,000 years ago when Adam started farming and then this was followed by the cool period of from 14,000 years ago to about 12,000, "the curse of the ground" a period in which farming was more difficult. Then about 12,000 years ago the warming up begins and farming becomes easier and proliferates.

    How about the location?

    As already shown the data on the farmers indicates that the after the flood Genesis history took place in the Ararat area and that the area is also the origin of many of the known farm crops and domesticated animals. Also all four of the rivers of Eden listed in Genesis 2:11-14 can be readily identified, the "Perath, Hiddekel, Gihon and Pishon"

    "Perath is simply the Hebrew version of Arabic Firat and Greek Euphrates;

    "Hiddekel is Hebrew for Sumerian Idiglat from which the Greek Tigris derives."

    Gihon; "... the River Aras, flowing into the Caspian Sea from the mountains north of Lake Urmia, was once called the Gaihun. By checking the writings of the Islamic geographers who accompanied the Arabic invasion of Persia in the 8th century, I was able to confirm that this was indeed the case. Moreover, even as late as the last century, Victorian atlases and encyclopaedias were still naming the river as the Gaihun-Aras. The Gaihun is therefore the missing biblical Gihon."

    "Pishon - "Hebrew (West Semitic) name derived from the old Iranian Uizhun, where the Iranian vowel 'U' had been converted into the Semitic labial consonant 'P'. Thus we have Uizhun to Pizhun to Pishon. Strange as it may seem, such switches do occur between the two language groups. For instance, one archaeological site in Iran is known by its Arabic (West Semitic) name of Pisdeli whereas its ancient (Iranian) name was Uishteri. The river Uizhun (the modern Qezel Uzun) - thus identified as the biblical Pishon - flows down from the mountains of Kurdistan and empties into the southern basin of the Caspian Sea."

    See "The Road to paradise" for more information.

    All people are related, but "In the article in the November 2001 issue of The American Journal of Human Genetics, Ariella Oppenheim of the Hebrew University of Israel wrote that this new study revealed that Jews have a closer genetic relationship to populations in the northern Mediterranean (Kurds, Anatolian Turks, and Armenians) than to populations in the southern Mediterranean (Arabs and Bedouins)." (from kevin_brook.htm)


    We have summarized some of the data that seems to indicate that there was a cultural shift for humans that was brought on by the development of the farming society possibly allowed by the ASPM gene variant as early as 14,000 years ago. By examining the available archaeological data on the development of this farming community and comparing it to the Biblical Genesis description of Adam and his descendants we have attempted to demonstrate how this data provides us with an approximate time line for the Biblical Adam, the first man by Biblical definition, a farmer. Thus by farming man demonstrates his ability to;
    ... let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    Genesis 1:26

    And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
    Genesis 1:29

  2. MaxShimba

    MaxShimba JF-Expert Member

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    Are you related to me?
  3. R

    Rubabi Senior Member

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    You are dabbling with your pseudo scientific mumbo-jumbo and passing them as 'science' thinking that all readers in Jumbo forums are gullible like you.

    You need to quote from peer reviewed papers to back up your points.

    Archeology,genetics,geography, palentiology have proven that modern man started in east africa around 150,000 years ago.

    All men from 150,000 to 50,000 were black african like you living in africa (including 'adam' and 'eve')before they migrated to other places outside africa around 50,000 years ago,these african people later on differentiated to other 'races' we know to day,actually the white race is as recent as 15,000 years ago.

    Farming and animal domestication were also invented separately in africa, egypt, the nile valley and the sahara and there are numerous paintings dating as back as 8,000 years attesting to this.The middle east was not the only place to 'invent' agriculture.

    Genetics and archeology has proven beyond doubt that these first middle eastern farmers called the 'natufians' had a subsaharan african component in them that is, they were africans,and do not phenotypically(kiumbile) relate to the people living in the middle east today.

    Even the bible has an echo of this fact,canaan was a land whose first inhabitants, the sons of ham (ham in the table of nations in the bible refers to africans),this land was later taken by the israelis.

    If you want primary peer-reviewed scientific papers to prove the aforementioned I will give you the links,otherwise,lets continue the debate.
  4. MaxShimba

    MaxShimba JF-Expert Member

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    Your malicious reply failed to state your position and/or impugn, rather than demonstrating that my thread failed to annex exhibits to support its authenticity, while there is more than ten annexed exhibits in each and every paragraph therein, and you decided to jump on the race of the first man.

    You brought un exhibited statement that ALL MEN from 150,000 to 50,000 were Black African.

    You further failed to annex any exhibit to your allegation and decided to give a defacto conclusion that Adam was a black man. According to the Bible, the first man created by God was not in Canaan, inter-alia, the Garden of Eden was a place where Adam and Eve resided. Kindly forward supporting evidence that Canaan was a land of the first inhabitant pursuant to your allegations contained in paragraph 7 of your reply.

    You have failed and/or refused to give any supporting evidence to support your reply, and decided to conclude in your answer that, you can only give your scientific exhibits to your reply when asked.

    Wherefore, your verified reply is ipso facto, and dismissed for lack of knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as to your un exhibited verified reply failed to state a cause of its authenticity.

    Furthermore, your reply is unethical and should be dismissed for lack of merits.

    Last edited: Jul 28, 2008
  5. MaxShimba

    MaxShimba JF-Expert Member

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    Paragraph 5 of your answer says, . . . . invented separately in Africa, Egypt, the Nile Valley, and the Sahara. Is Egypt not in Africa? What about Nile and Sahara, are they not in Africa too?

    I think you better go to .... and learn some Geography!

  6. Pundit

    Pundit JF-Expert Member

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    I think it is a more a matter of punctuation than geography.That is the picture I am getting.Rubabi wanted to say farming was invented separately in all these places which are in Africa.

    I would like to see a reconcilement of a 6,000 years old Adamic lineage of manking with archaelogical and palaeontological findings dating hundreds of thousands of years.
  7. R

    Rubabi Senior Member

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    The main thesis of your article will not deserve even a glance from any serious scholar.

    Quoting creationist pseudo scholarship will not help you.

    'Adam' or modern man did not start 14,000 years ago.

    Modern humans started btwn 50,000 to 150,000 years ago in east Africa, that is probably in Tanzania ,Ethiopia and Kenya. It is in these countries that all human genetic families au koo are found even to this day. All other lineages found outside Africa (including the middle east) are just subsets of those found in Africa. All anthropologists unanimously agree that the first man was African and black, and from 150,000 to about 50,000 years ago all humans lived in Africa and were black before moving to other continents and differentiating into people of different colours.

    In my previous post, I meant to say that farming was also separately invented in Africa and other places, and not only in the middle east although the farming found in Africa and the middle east is probably older than that found in other places. For example there is abundant evidence of farming in Africa ( Egypt, the Nile valley, the Sahara rock paintings etc).

    The first farmers in the middle east are known as Natufians , and skeletal evidence of these farmers proves without doubt that they had a sub Saharan component in them, that is they were Africans. Traces of these Natufians have not only been found in the Middle East but also around southern Europe i.e Greece. Proof of this is also found in Genetics. Modern Greece has 20 percent haplotype E3b (which has been traced to the neolithic e.g farming period-from 10,000BC) this hyplotype is a marker for African ancestry. Remember all Africans fall within these two haplotypes: E3a found predominantly in West Africa and e3b found in East Africa.

    Now I will tell you what happened. Remember there is no significant barrier between Africa and the Middle East, Africans crossed to the Middle East in very ancient times. These people eventually started farming, and spread it (farming) around the Mediterranean to southern Europe,(this is called demic diffusion) , that is they brought these techniques to in situ population who adopted agriculture and also they intermingled with them. Their original features were diluted in this mixing although the genetic marker as always, never disappears.

    The abstract of this peer-reviewed paper says a lot of what I am trying to say, that these early agriculturists in the Middle East and Europe were in fact African this fact is actually mainstream now:

    The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form
    C. Loring Brace,*† Noriko Seguchi,‡ Conrad B. Quintyn,§ Sherry C. Fox, A. Russell Nelson, Sotiris K. Manolis,** and Pan Qifeng††

    When 24 craniofacial measurements of a series of human populations are used to generate neighbor-joining dendrograms, it is no surprise that all modern European groups, ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean to the Middle East, show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe…..[/I]

    It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa. Basques and Canary Islanders are clearly associated with modern Europeans. When canonical variates are plotted, neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested. The data treated here support the idea that the Neolithic moved out of the Near East into the circum-Mediterranean areas and Europe by a process of demic diffusion but that subsequently the in situ residents of those areas, derived from the Late Pleistocene inhabitants, absorbed both the agricultural life way and the people who had brought it.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2008
  8. T

    The Truth JF-Expert Member

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    How do you prove that we all evolved from Africans rather than we just share the same source/ancestor?
  9. Nyani Ngabu

    Nyani Ngabu Platinum Member

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    Good question. It can't be proved....
  10. MaxShimba

    MaxShimba JF-Expert Member

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    I think there is a reason in law, fact and it is merital to consent that there is a beyond reasonable doubt that human being are related.

    Thanks Max for your educational thread.

    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2008
  11. MaxShimba

    MaxShimba JF-Expert Member

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    If Adam and Eve were the first man and woman, then we are related. No doubt about it.

    The question is, how did we come to have all these races and colors?