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Who is the greatest tanzanian president?

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Siasa' started by MwanaFalsafa1, Apr 23, 2009.

  1. MwanaFalsafa1

    MwanaFalsafa1 JF-Expert Member

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    I have been asking myself this question for a while. Who is the greatest Tanzanian president thus far? What makes them your choice? What characteristics did they have or what did they achieve. The reason I ask is that I'm not even out of my teens & havent been around all presidents & those I have been around for I was still young. By the way I encourage people not to talk about giving us independence when they pick Nyerere for the simple fact that independence could only be given once so no other president would have gotten the chance to do so.

    So lets break down the contestants:
    There is Nyerere who was selfless, not a thief and was not afraid to say the truth or hold any one accountable for their mistakes. He could have been president for life if he so wished but unlike most leaders of his time he gave up the presidency willingly. He was a people's leader who wasn't afraid to mix it up with people of all calibars. But there are those who say that his Ujamaa theory was a total failure and that his decision to use our resources to help other Africans gain independence is the reason for our poor economy. How do you grade the undoutably Later Great Mwalimu Nyerere.

    Then came Ali Hassan Mwinyi who is credited for opening up a free market thus his nickname "Rhuksa". He is also a people's person & is a very well respected elder statesman of Tanzania. During his time also we saw the emergence of opotion parties for the first time.Many people tell me that there was a lot of "udini" during his time but I don't know if they mean it was do to his policies or it just happened that this period of religious tensions occured when he was president. How do you grade Mzee Mwinyi?

    Then came the now infamous BWM. Some say Nyerere handpicked him for the presidency & prefered him over a young & charismatic Jakaya mrisho Kikwete. He came under the monicker of "Mr. Clean". I don't know why Nyerere chose BWM but he must have had good reasons. During BWM's time as president the countries GNP did grow & the govenment's revenue did increase. There were many visible developments achieved during BWM's time. Whether you agree these developments were are direct result of his presidency or not he was the man with the big decisions when they occured. He also foresaw the funeral of dear Mwalimu which was a hard time for all ofus, even a ten year old me. It couldn't have been easy being the countries president & the chairman of CCM during this period. However, since his depature there have been some rumors over possible abuse of power & I say rumors because nothing has been proven yet. Whether these accusations are true or not, there is no denying that they have cost him a certain amount of his reputation. So how do you grade "Mr. Clean"?

    Then comes probably the most charismatic & popular president since Nyerere, Mr. Jakaya Mrisho Kikwete. I remember when he first announced his intent for the presidency & how he had an almost "obama" like impact on the public. Everyone was swept over by Kikwetemania & when he was announced as the CCM candidate he had almost already being guaranteed the presidency. He then won 80% of the popular vote. He came in with a lot of promises & gave us all hope. I was a vivid supporter for Kikwete. Well he won & the honeymoon was soon over. When the scandals started hitting his high officials everyone seemed to blame him for not taking action quickly. I stilldon't think he could have rushed to do anything, there was a lot of things which had to be done before any punishments were administered. Personally, what I like about JK is that he has not been personally been hit by any scandal & like it or not he is obe of the few high positioned leaders in government or CCM who has not been accused over raking in millions & millions of "vijisenti". His term is not over & he could possibly win a second term in office so how do you grade JK?

    There might be a few things I have left out, you are free to add. If there are facts which are wrong or need to be added on you are welcome to state them. In the end it all boils down to what kind of leader you prefer.All this mn like any humans have their strength & weaknesses so I hope we will judge them by human standards. LADIES & GENTLEMEN, WHO IS THE GREATEST PRESIDENT EVER OF TANZANIA? According to me here is how I would rank them starting from top to bottom.

    1.Nyerere
    2.JK
    3.Ali hassan Mwinyi
    4.BWM

    What about you?
     
  2. Bluray

    Bluray JF-Expert Member

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    You will have to provide the criteria for the question to make sense.

    For example, the following questions are well defined and can easily be answered.

    Which president is most responsible for Tanzanias foreign policy?

    Who was the most knowledgeable president in matters economic?

    Which president was the most authoritative?

    Which was the most passive?

    The overgeneralization in the question "Which president was the greatest" renders the question meaningless in the sense that a fair comparison between Kikwete and Nyerere can hardly be made, Nyerere took the country when Kikwete was just 11 years old!

    You very rightly noted that attributing independence to Nyerere would be unfair due to the very nature of that unprecedented status and unrepeatable feat, but if you consider the same reasoning you will see it is difficult to asses many things Nyerere did without having this pioneering nature of his administration figuring in.Nyerere appointed the first cabinet, Nyerere made most of the initial decisions, Nyerere ruled a country mostly with no opposition, no TV, no internet, no Tanzanians in the diaspora, so comparing him to someone like Kikwete is almost like the proverbial comparing apples to oranges, you first need to find a common currency where you will translate these two administration's achievement and be able to say "If Kikwete was in Nyerere's position he would have done this and this, and therefore I think Nyerere did better than what Kikwete would have done in his place" this is an almost an exercise in parallel universe quantum entanglement and alternate history "what if" scenarios best suited to fiction than factual analysis, good for mental weightlifting but not worth the saliva it stimulates.


    If we want to go by passion, we can probably pour our passions, but if we are to go by facts, the facts on the ground in 1985 when Nyerere was signing off are very different from 2005 when Kikwete took the country, therefore a fair comparison can hardly be made.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2009
  3. MwanaFalsafa1

    MwanaFalsafa1 JF-Expert Member

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    If we follow your understanding it is obvious we can't compare any two leaders because administrations & circumstances are always different. Wewe give your opinion who did more for the dear country. You can not make any specifications because hata mfano uliotoa wewe wa foreign policies, world events were different for each president. It is who you felt was a better leader in general because circumstance of each era is different but you can say who you feel was better for Tanzania. If you think the question has no sense then maybe you should question your sense. Sometimes generalization is aunavoidable. I didnt say it should be a matter of fact its a matter of opinion. Sometimes you just have to judge with opinion because facts are to many with many variables to consider. If you want scientific answers then suggest a scientific formula you would use to answer the question rather than just find fault with the question. Do you have a scientific formula you can suggest to be used here tokupe facts unazo taka?
     
  4. Bluray

    Bluray JF-Expert Member

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    If you do not find a common currency of exchange, by which you will translate
    different administration's achievements, you run the risk of crediting Kikwete over Nyerere for something whose foundation was placed by Nyerere.

    Kikwete went to school courtesy of Universal Education, therefore whatever good that Kikwete can be creited for, he was able to do partly due to Nyerere's system.

    So you cannot make an objective and reasoned comparison.

    Unless you want to get passionate of course.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2009
  5. Nyani Ngabu

    Nyani Ngabu Platinum Member

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    Like what could that be?
     
  6. MwanaFalsafa1

    MwanaFalsafa1 JF-Expert Member

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    Jamani people do you understand the meaning of the word opinion? Sawa you feel JK was educated under the Nyerere system so what ever he achieves is because of Nyerere so its better you say then you pick Nyerere over JK. Because I think people don't know what opinion is rather they want to argue. I agree there a lot of factors to consider if you were to choose the greates but i repeat again in your OPINION who is the greatest? Whether you want to judge by passion or what ever its your opinion. You youself judge what is success to you & make an opinion. Thats also why i said those people who say my question doesn't make sense in judging then give a formula you think should be used to compare them rather than kubisha tu kama wapinzani.
     
  7. Bluray

    Bluray JF-Expert Member

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    Nyerere created the education system that gave Kikwete his education up to University level.

    Now if Kikwete is excelling or fouling things because of his education or lack of it, where do you draw the line between Nyereres system responsibility and Kikwete's personal responsibily?

    Can Nyerere claim credit for producing a brilliant president in Kikwete? How much credit will Nyerere take and how much credit will Kikwete take?

    Here is where my "what if" alternate history question comes to play, what if Nyerere had decided not to have UPE and only royal families from large tribes were afforded education, would Kikwete still be able to go to University? Can you truly credit Kikwete objectively without observing Nyereres influence in some way?

    Likewise, if Kikwete is fouling things up, can you not claim that Nyerere's party and system produced this mess? Of all the blame assigned Kikwete, how did a person like Kikwete manage to get an Economics degree for gods sake,Nyerere was Head of UDSM when Kikwete graduated there, isn't he responsible for producing this fiasco?

    How can you divorce the fourth floor from the ground floor and expect your argument to stand?

    I think the question is framed in overly simplistic terms to render itself almost fallacious when examined in depth, tht is unless you want to be passionate and force an unreal and ugly constancy.
     
  8. MwanaFalsafa1

    MwanaFalsafa1 JF-Expert Member

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    This is about individualism. Bluray you want to say that a father should take credit for everything the son does whether bad or good? Or do you want to say everything you do we should blame or kumpa pongezi the one who raised you. Beacuse just because Nyerer was head of UDSM when JK was there doesn't mean Nyerere taught him everything. If your point was to be true then they wouldn't be good people with bad parents or bad people with good parents. Even if JK was a result of the Nyerere era he is still his own man. Na you gave example fo the first & fourth floor basi kama ndiyo hivyo whatever our presents & future leaders do basi tuseme is beacuse of Nyerer because Nyerere will always be fiirst uongo? You can't put everything one does because of those who came first. Kama ni hivyo we can predict basi tabia za kila mtu kutokana na babu na baba zao.
     
  9. MwanaFalsafa1

    MwanaFalsafa1 JF-Expert Member

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    Every person has a mind of their own. No matter what system JK grew up in he can differentiate for himself what is good or what is bad. Mfano, a teacher & a student in class. If the teacher taught his pupil a certain way does it mean he will for sure follow those teachings? Basi jamani lets not give people credit for anything lets give it to the people who came before them. If you do not have a mind or will of your own then you are a cattle or goat. No matter what environment you came from it is ultimately your choice what you turn into. LEO AKITOKEA DICTATOR TANZANIA TUMLAUMU NYERERE BLURAY? YEYE SI NDIYO 1ST FLOOR KWA MADAI YAKO.
     
  10. Bluray

    Bluray JF-Expert Member

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    I said precisely that you have to find a common currency by which you will commonly translate the achievements of these different administrations.

    It will be easier to play three simultaneous games of three dimensional chess underwater, against Bobby Fisher, Gary Kasparov and Anatoly Karpov while swimming with sharks without being eaten alive than to objectively answer your question.

    Administration are inherently led by the zeitgeist of the time, Nyerere flogged UDSM students and disciplined them back to class, can Kikwete do the same today? Will Kikwete be less authoritative because he cannot do that today? What about the zeitgeist?

    You might as well compare parallel universes.
     
  11. Bluray

    Bluray JF-Expert Member

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    Wamarekani leo, kwa jinsi walivyoweka first floor yao, leo kupata dictator it is very unlikely, kwa sababu waliweka misingi ambayo haitoi mwanya wa udikteta, at least in its non Caesarian format.

    Leo askari wa mkoa fulani wa kanda fulani yenye wanajeshi wengi akitaka kuchukua nchi kwa kujua a disproportionately large number ya wanajeshi wanatoka kwao na aliwaweka Nyerere utashindwa kumlaumu Nyerere kwa kuweka imbalance hii jeshini? Nyerere atakosa sehemu yake ya lawama?
     
  12. Nyani Ngabu

    Nyani Ngabu Platinum Member

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    What do you mean by "Nyerere created" the education system? Are you saying that Nyerere 'single-handedly' created the education system?

    You can't attribute the successes and failures of Kikwete as president to the education system that "Nyerere created". If that's the standard then what do you attribute the successes and failures of Nyerere's presidency to?

    Nope. Nyerere can't do that either. Each is responsible for their own successess and failures.

    Since it's a "what if" no one knows....

    Sounds like 'blame Nyerere for everything' syndrome to me...

    Nyerere was the Chancellor of the University and to my understanding, the Chancellor of UDSM (back then) was not the chief administrative or chief academic officer. So how can Nyerere be responsible for what Kikwete turned out to be? Hmmmm...more of 'blame Nyerere for everything' syndrome...The ones to blame for making Kikwete president are the people who voted for him...the 80% of those who voted. Not Nyerere.

    Not analogous. We are talking about leadership here and not civil engineering.
     
  13. MwanaFalsafa1

    MwanaFalsafa1 JF-Expert Member

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    Thanks Ngabu for breaking it down to bluray because it seems he is rather interested in creating an argument without understanding the implications of what he is saying. You can't blame others for the mistake of a person.
     
  14. MwanaFalsafa1

    MwanaFalsafa1 JF-Expert Member

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    So let me ask you bluray. Richard Nixon who was involved in the Watergate scandal is it because of the founding fathers of America & the example they set? George Bush is he also a result ya hiyo "misingi" unayoongelea? The first president of America, George washington was a wealthy slave owner & back them racism was a norm so is Obama a result of those foundations you are talking about?
     
  15. Bluray

    Bluray JF-Expert Member

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    You are not making an attempt to compare different administrations which is the underlying theme, so your characterization is rather unfair.

    Richard Milhous Nixon was much more than Watergate, his foreign policy, especially his breakthrough with China, represented the best ideals of American foreign policy from the non-isolationalists elements of the founding fathers.

    Having said that, on the other hand, one can say the founding fathers designed a contentious party politics system, without which Watergate would not be possible. But the question really should be to me to show how is it possible or impossible to compare Nixon and George Washington.If you consider the conditions on the ground for Washington and Nixon you will see the sheer futility of this exercise.It is hard enough to compare two administrators operating in the same time frame, let alone different administrations spanning decades with presidents featuring differently at different points.

    The Bush doctrine is rooted in, at least in principle, the ideals of founding fathers, the paramount position of freedom drawn from American Revolutionary War, classical liberalism and European Renaissance philosophers such as John Locke.What are you trying to say, George Bush does not owe the founding fathers of America?

    Obama is very much a result of the American founding fathers, from his Lincolnesque inaugural journey among other overtures to his commitment to emulating the founding fathers, what are you trying to say, Obama does not draw from the American founding fathers? Can Obama be Obama without standing on the shoulders of the people who prepared the framework he is currently standing on? How can you accurately compare Obama to Lincoln let alone Washington?
     
  16. S

    Sahiba JF-Expert Member

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    Nyie watu hamuwezi kuishi bila kumtaja huyu mzee Everytime you guys mention his name I am geting stomach virus.The simple fact is nyerere screw us up let's face it.

    SAHIBA.
     
  17. F

    Fundi Mchundo JF-Expert Member

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    Marais wanne tu halafu tayari tunazungumzia the greatest! Mbona tunapenda mno hivi vilemba vya ukoka?

    Amandla.....
     
  18. Mzee Mwanakijiji

    Mzee Mwanakijiji Platinum Member

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    We haven't reached the level of attempting to answer that question yet. With just 4 presidents and a history of less than 50 years it'll be presumptuous of us to try to have one as the "greatest"..
     
  19. Mzee Mwanakijiji

    Mzee Mwanakijiji Platinum Member

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    duh.. sikuona na wewe umetoa point hiyo hiyo.. a case of great minds?
     
  20. SYLLOGIST!

    SYLLOGIST! JF-Expert Member

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    1. Nyerere
      [*]Ali H. Mwinyi
      [*]JK
      [*]?
    I personally think it is too early to call.

    alas, who is the greatest beneficiary of their greatness?

    I'd simply put it- Nyerere is the Greatest.
     
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