Dismiss Notice
You are browsing this site as a guest. It takes 2 minutes to CREATE AN ACCOUNT and less than 1 minute to LOGIN

What Happens When We Die?

Discussion in 'JF Doctor' started by macho_mdiliko, Sep 24, 2008.

  1. macho_mdiliko

    macho_mdiliko JF-Expert Member

    #1
    Sep 24, 2008
    Joined: Mar 10, 2008
    Messages: 5,886
    Likes Received: 1,451
    Trophy Points: 280
    A fellow at New York City's Weill Cornell Medical Center, Dr. Sam Parnia is one of the world's leading experts on the scientific study of death. Last week Parnia and his colleagues at the Human Consciousness Project announced their first major undertaking: a 3-year exploration of the biology behind "out-of-body" experiences. The study, known as AWARE (AWAreness during REsuscitation), involves the collaboration of 25 major medical centers through Europe, Canada and the U.S. and will examine some 1,500 survivors of cardiac arrest. TIME spoke with Parnia about the project's origins, its skeptics and the difference between the mind and the brain.

    What sort of methods will this project use to try and verify people's claims of "near-death" experience?

    When your heart stops beating, there is no blood getting to your brain. And so what happens is that within about 10 sec., brain activity ceases - as you would imagine. Yet paradoxically, 10% or 20% of people who are then brought back to life from that period, which may be a few minutes or over an hour, will report having consciousness. So the key thing here is, Are these real, or is it some sort of illusion? So the only way to tell is to have pictures only visible from the ceiling and nowhere else, because they claim they can see everything from the ceiling. So if we then get a series of 200 or 300 people who all were clinically dead, and yet they're able to come back and tell us what we were doing and were able see those pictures, that confirms consciousness really was continuing even though the brain wasn't functioning.

    How does this project relate to society's perception of death?

    People commonly perceive death as being a moment - you're either dead or you're alive. And that's a social definition we have. But the clinical definition we use is when the heart stops beating, the lungs stop working, and as a consequence the brain itself stops working. When doctors shine a light into someone's pupil, it's to demonstrate that there is no reflex present. The eye reflex is mediated by the brain stem, and that's the area that keeps us alive; if that doesn't work, then that means that the brain itself isn't working. At that point, I'll call a nurse into the room so I can certify that this patient is dead. Fifty years ago, people couldn't survive after that.

    How is technology challenging the perception that death is a moment?


    Nowadays, we have technology that's improved so that we can bring people back to life. In fact, there are drugs being developed right now - who knows if they'll ever make it to the market - that may actually slow down the process of brain-cell injury and death. Imagine you fast-forward to 10 years down the line; and you've given a patient, whose heart has just stopped, this amazing drug; and actually what it does is, it slows everything down so that the things that would've happened over an hour, now happen over two days. As medicine progresses, we will end up with lots and lots of ethical questions.


    But what is happening to the individual at that time? What's really going on? Because there is a lack of blood flow, the cells go into a kind of a frenzy to keep themselves alive. And within about 5 min. or so they start to damage or change. After an hour or so the damage is so great that even if we restart the heart again and pump blood, the person can no longer be viable, because the cells have just been changed too much. And then the cells continue to change so that within a couple of days the body actually decomposes. So it's not a moment; it's a process that actually begins when the heart stops and culminates in the complete loss of the body, the decompositions of all the cells. However, ultimately what matters is, What's going on to a person's mind? What happens to the human mind and consciousness during death? Does that cease immediately as soon as the heart stops? Does it cease activity within the first 2 sec., the first 2 min.? Because we know that cells are continuously changing at that time. Does it stop after 10 min., after half an hour, after an hour? And at this point we don't know.

    What was your first interview like with someone who had reported an out-of-body experience?


    Eye-opening and very humbling. Because what you see is that, first of all, they are completely genuine people who are not looking for any kind of fame or attention. In many cases they haven't even told anybody else about it because they're afraid of what people will think of them. I have about 500 or so cases of people that I've interviewed since I first started out more than 10 years ago. It's the consistency of the experiences, the reality of what they were describing. I managed to speak to doctors and nurses who had been present who said these patients had told them exactly what had happened, and they couldn't explain it. I actually documented a few of those in my book What Happens When We Die because I wanted people to get both angles - not just the patients' side but also the doctors' side - and see how it feels for the doctors to have a patient come back and tell them what was going on. There was a cardiologist that I spoke with who said he hasn't told anyone else about it because he has no explanation for how this patient could have been able to describe in detail what he had said and done. He was so freaked out by it that he just decided not to think about it anymore.

    Why do you think there is such resistance to studies like yours?


    Because we're pushing through the boundaries of science, working against assumptions and perceptions that have been fixed. A lot of people hold this idea that, well, when you die, you die; that's it. Death is a moment - you know you're either dead or alive. All these things are not scientifically valid, but they're social perceptions. If you look back at the end of the 19th century, physicists at that time had been working with Newtonian laws of motion, and they really felt they had all the answers to everything that was out there in the universe. When we look at the world around us, Newtonian physics is perfectly sufficient. It explains most things that we deal with. But then it was discovered that actually when you look at motion at really small levels - beyond the level of the atoms - Newton's laws no longer apply. A new physics was needed, hence, we eventually ended up with quantum physics. It caused a lot of controversy - even Einstein himself didn't believe in it.


    Now, if you look at the mind, consciousness, and the brain, the assumption that the mind and brain are the same thing is fine for most circumstances, because in 99% of circumstances we can't separate the mind and brain; they work at the exactly the same time. But then there are certain extreme examples, like when the brain shuts down, that we see that this assumption may no longer seem to hold true. So a new science is needed in the same way that we had to have a new quantum physics. The CERN particle accelerator may take us back to our roots. It may take us back to the first moments after the Big Bang, the very beginning. With our study, for the first time, we have the technology and the means to be able to investigate this. To see what happens at the end for us. Does something continue?

    SOURCE:
    [media]http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20080923/hl_time/whathappenswhenwedie[/media]
     
  2. Mbu

    Mbu JF-Expert Member

    #2
    Sep 25, 2008
    Joined: Jan 11, 2007
    Messages: 12,703
    Likes Received: 92
    Trophy Points: 145
    ...mada zuri hii, sema watu ama kwa kuogopa kufa au kujitia nuksi ya kufa kufa wameingia mitini! ...usifanye mchezo na roho kuacha mwili, ukienda huko hurudi!

    Hizo near death experiences haziwezi linganishwa na kifo chenyewe, kwani Kifo kila mtu anakitafsiri kwa mujibu wa Itikadi za dini yake na ufahamu wake.

    'waliobahatika' na near death experiences wengi wao wanaelezea 'ku float-thru' tunnel like, ...au wengine wanapata out-of the body experience, yaani for a few seconds anapokuwa 'hayupo duniani' ana experience weightlessness, kiasi kwamba anakuwa na uwezo wa kuuona mwili wake na watu walokizunguka kitanda (kwa mfano), kisha baada ya muda anapata senses na kujiskia mzito tena, kwa maana ya kurudia kwenye hali yake ya ubinadamu.

    Hiyo ya out of the body experience nimeelezwa na kaka yangu mwenyewe, ilimtokea siku alipokuwa hoi taaban, na all major organs mwilini mwake zilifail kabisa, ...hata ile reading kwenye mashine ilishaaanza someka ------------------------! ila kwa uwezo wa Rabuka, (maana madakitari walishaanza kuangua na vilio!), alirejewa tena na pumzi, mpaka kupona na kuendelea na maisha yake, mpaka mwenyezi mungu alipomchukua moja kwa moja miezi mitatu baadae.
     
  3. D

    David Nkulu Member

    #3
    Sep 25, 2008
    Joined: Jul 25, 2008
    Messages: 53
    Likes Received: 0
    Trophy Points: 0
    Interesting! Let's see what comes out of it.
    Japo, sidhani kama wataweza kuona na kugundua kila kitu hapo. Pana vitu ambavyo hata tufanyeje hawatavigundua. Taste na ukweli wake wote mtu anaupata pale anapokwenda mwenyewe moja kwa moja!
     
  4. Mzee Mwanakijiji

    Mzee Mwanakijiji Platinum Member

    #4
    Sep 25, 2008
    Joined: Mar 10, 2006
    Messages: 30,402
    Likes Received: 2,478
    Trophy Points: 280
    Kanuni ya Relativity iko very simple E=MC2. Sheria hii ni lazima itiiwe. Lakini pia sheria nyingine za fizikia kama "the law of conservation of energy" ambayo ni msingi pia wa General Theory of Relativity zinaelezea vizuri tu nini kinatokea baada ya kifo. Now, kama swali ni what happens to the body jibu ni rahisi, mwili hukosa uhai, huaribika na baadaye kuoza. Kwa wale waaminio dini wanasema unarudi "mavumbini". Kama swali ni what happen after we die, the answer remains in the theory of general relativity.
     
  5. H

    Haika JF-Expert Member

    #5
    Sep 25, 2008
    Joined: Mar 3, 2008
    Messages: 2,241
    Likes Received: 20
    Trophy Points: 135
    Another question is what is 'we'
    are we talking of the physical body?
    can we include other existences of the human being?
    like the 'soul' 'supernatural body'

    But if we are talking about the physical body only as it does not encompass all of us, then we will never be able to understand the complete truth about our existence.

    Problem I can see is nowadays ppl affected by western world, tend to believe only what they can see, what can obey scientific rules. Only to find themselves with more questions than answers.
    You do not need to be a spacecraft engineer to understand that there are supernatural beings and activities in this world.
    We tend to confuse it with religious beliefs.
    My close friend had a severe accident and was unconcious when his indian friends came to visit. (my friend is not afraid to explore whater beings there are, he has some strange friends all over the world).
    He says that after they did whatever they do he was on top of the ICU looking at what was happening to his body, his wife crying, his friends in the room and he was at peace. After he woke up he was changed man from there, new determination and fearless of life struggles, he had peace etc.
    Doctors had told his wife that he will take 6 months to get out of hospital and that will be with a wheel chair, but he got out in 5 wks with only crutches!
    This is one example of supernatural powers within us.
    We should all try to use to give us will to live, energy and purpose. This being does not die, thats why all over the world, everybody knows that there are ghosts, and you can talk to dead ppl.
     
  6. Mzee Mwanakijiji

    Mzee Mwanakijiji Platinum Member

    #6
    Sep 25, 2008
    Joined: Mar 10, 2006
    Messages: 30,402
    Likes Received: 2,478
    Trophy Points: 280
    I see Pundit writing...
     
  7. Offish

    Offish Senior Member

    #7
    Sep 25, 2008
    Joined: Aug 14, 2008
    Messages: 172
    Likes Received: 0
    Trophy Points: 0
    Sounds weird though, interesting discussion. I wish someone with witchcraft experience too chipped in and explained on the practice. Witches use winnowing baskets - ungos - for flying, am told. Do they leave behind their bodies or fly with them? The baskets are too small to support the weight of their fleshes, they also don't have a shape of a bird or an aircraft! What fuel does it use? Answers for these questions, if are made public, can fuel inventions of affordable means of transport provided they don't violate human rights.....
     
  8. Mzee Mwanakijiji

    Mzee Mwanakijiji Platinum Member

    #8
    Sep 25, 2008
    Joined: Mar 10, 2006
    Messages: 30,402
    Likes Received: 2,478
    Trophy Points: 280
    sheria za asili za ulimwengu lazima zitiiwe; uchawi unajaribu kuvunja sheria hizo.
     
  9. Mbu

    Mbu JF-Expert Member

    #9
    Sep 25, 2008
    Joined: Jan 11, 2007
    Messages: 12,703
    Likes Received: 92
    Trophy Points: 145
    ...it's bit weird/spooky and i might be wrong, lakini najihisi (6th sense!) mimi na mwili wangu ni vitu viwili tofauti, i.e ipo siku i can/will be in another body!!!

    View attachment 2571
     
  10. Steve Dii

    Steve Dii JF-Expert Member

    #10
    Sep 26, 2008
    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Messages: 6,414
    Likes Received: 40
    Trophy Points: 145
    Wait for MkamaP to log on....!
     
  11. Steve Dii

    Steve Dii JF-Expert Member

    #11
    Sep 26, 2008
    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Messages: 6,414
    Likes Received: 40
    Trophy Points: 145


    ---miye ndiyo maana nachukia paka!
     
  12. Mbu

    Mbu JF-Expert Member

    #12
    Sep 26, 2008
    Joined: Jan 11, 2007
    Messages: 12,703
    Likes Received: 92
    Trophy Points: 145
    ...:D:D:D

    ...SteveD be v.v.afraid!!! hasa paka-shume!
     
  13. Kinyau

    Kinyau JF-Expert Member

    #13
    Sep 26, 2008
    Joined: Nov 24, 2006
    Messages: 776
    Likes Received: 67
    Trophy Points: 45
    what has paka got to do wit death?
     
  14. NaimaOmari

    NaimaOmari JF-Expert Member

    #14
    Sep 26, 2008
    Joined: Sep 25, 2007
    Messages: 807
    Likes Received: 14
    Trophy Points: 0
    in our african tradition we are meant to belive kuna life after death hata dini zetu pia zinazungumzia kufufuliwa kwetu .. kwahiyo tuamini kwamba there is life after death. Traditions nyingi zina potray this truth i.e. locally wachagga they have a ritual ya kusafirisha waliofariki ili wakaungane na ndugu na jamaa walotangulia "isanza na kishari" but not only them egypt for instance the pharoahs were burried with their wives and a lot of food stuff and drinks in the pyramids .. in some tribes in africa .. kama an elder dies he is burried seated on a kigoda .. his best servants go with him na mbuzi au chakula kingine plus kifimbo chake kama that was the symbol of his leadership

    mfano mdogo tu mtu akifa ananyenyekewa sana anapamba na ma suti kwa wakristo na kwetu waislam manukato na sanda mpya safi isokuwa na doa .. this respect for the body of the deceased na all the accorded heshima inaashiria kwamba the dead feel and know whats happening ... kuna wengine wanapeleka nguo na hata maua kwenye makaburi wanazungumza na ndugu zao juu ya makaburi and the like.

    Kuna watu wengi sana ambao even after death wana manupulate situations anaweza akakwambia msinizike sehemu flani au flani asije kwenye mazishi yangu na kweli mkilazimisha kumsafirisha maafa hutokea na huyo alomkataa lazima atapata dharura tu ambae itamzuia asifike kwenye mazishi ya mhusika

    Sala pia kwa marehemu hufanywa .. all this just in respect kwamba hatujaachana we are still connected na kwamba sala zitampa au zitamletea ahueni huko aliko.

    Wengine hata come back in our dreams .. tunazungumza nao na kadhalika
     
  15. Fugwe

    Fugwe JF-Expert Member

    #15
    Sep 26, 2008
    Joined: Aug 21, 2008
    Messages: 1,561
    Likes Received: 84
    Trophy Points: 145

    Mchongoma,
    Kweli yahitaji uchambuzi wa kina. Binadamu unapokuwa na jambo fulani linaloumiza mara nyingi tunajisema wenyewe mfano, 'je, hili ninalolifanya ni sawa? uko pekee yako lakini unajiuliza, sasa je unayemuuliza ni nani? kutokana na ukweli huo, naona moja kwa moja kwamba mwili si sehemu yangu, kwani bado nina kitu kingine (internally) ninachokiuliza hususani mambo magumu yanaponisibu. Wakuu haya yameshawatokea au ni mimi mwenyewe?

    Ukweli huo nauhusisha na kifo pia, ninapokufa, mwili ndio unaokosa 'coordination', lakini mimi kama mimi nipo pembeni, Utata ni kwamba, ingawa nipo pembeni, siwezi kujitokeza katika umbo fulani nikasema yaliyonisibu bali nitaendele 'kujiju' mimi mwenyewe bila mtu mwingine kujua, hatua kama hii binadamu anapoifikia kwa kweli ndio kifo chenyewe, kwamba ukifa haurudi tena duniani.
     
  16. H

    Haika JF-Expert Member

    #16
    Sep 26, 2008
    Joined: Mar 3, 2008
    Messages: 2,241
    Likes Received: 20
    Trophy Points: 135

    umeiweka kwa namna ambayo nimeipenda sana,
    naona labda miili ni ya kuitumia tunavyotaka, hivi hii ndio "will"??
    manake unaposema ushinde na njaa mfano wakati wa kufunga, je nani anatamani chakula na nani anasema no? mpaka jioni?
    ina maana kuna 'items' au sijui tuiteje, wako panoja lakini wana interests tofauti.
    Wakiachana mmoja anakufa na kuoza, (au anagenerate ito other forms, mfano udongo nk)
    lakini mwingine anapaa ila hana mwili wa kutesa tena hapa duniani?
    Hata sielewi??
     
  17. Steve Dii

    Steve Dii JF-Expert Member

    #17
    Sep 26, 2008
    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Messages: 6,414
    Likes Received: 40
    Trophy Points: 145
    Paka are die hard Kinyau. There is a myth that they have got 7 lives...have you heard about it?.
    You know, reading the article above describing death as a process rather than a moment juggled my memory back to that myth and in order not to diverge this thread to myths about cats i went ahead and started a thread: http://www.jamiiforums.com/habari-hoja-mchanganyiko/18540-i-think-cats-evil-wewe-unawaonaje.html

    Can you give your opinion plse!
    Thanx.
     
  18. H

    Haika JF-Expert Member

    #18
    Sep 26, 2008
    Joined: Mar 3, 2008
    Messages: 2,241
    Likes Received: 20
    Trophy Points: 135
    what is the relationship between many lives and evil?
     
  19. Steve Dii

    Steve Dii JF-Expert Member

    #19
    Sep 26, 2008
    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Messages: 6,414
    Likes Received: 40
    Trophy Points: 145
    Evil exist in devils. Devils are believed to posses those dying from very disturbing and turbulent deaths, especially in most African traditions. To which natural remedies and other rituals are undertaken as a companion to death or part of the treatment.

    Seeing The Exorcist in which many lives are exorcised by a clergyman to reborn the sufferer makes me think the two are interrelated, or aren't they?!
     
  20. Himawari

    Himawari JF-Expert Member

    #20
    Sep 26, 2008
    Joined: Aug 21, 2008
    Messages: 1,728
    Likes Received: 279
    Trophy Points: 180
    Misukule labda wanaweza kujibu hilli swali vyema.
     
Loading...