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Watu 200 waliojitolea kupimwa -- jee, walipimwa awali kwamba walikuwa wanaugua maradhi hayo?

Discussion in 'Habari na Hoja mchanganyiko' started by Zak Malang, Mar 29, 2011.

  1. Zak Malang

    Zak Malang JF-Expert Member

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    Tumehabarishwa kwamba watu 200 waliopata kikombe cha Babu wa Loliondo wamejitolea kupimwa kitaalamu (kisayansi) ili kuona kama watakuwa wamepona maradhi waliyokuwa nayo.

    Naona hapa tunataka kuchanganywa akili: Experiment ya namna hii haitakuwa ina maana yoyote iwapo watu hao hawatakuwa wamepimwa awali mahospitalini kuwa kweli walikuwa wanaugua magonjwa hayo sugu na kuwa na vyeti vinavyoonyesha magonjwa hayo -- na halafu baada ya kupata kikombe ndiyo wapimwe tena.

    Mie nina hofu kwamba wengi wanaokwenda huko kwa Babu hawana vyeti vya mahospitali kuonyesha magonjwa yao kwa hivyo itakuwa ni ujinga tu mtu akachukuliwa tu hapo baada ya kupata kikombe na kwenda kufanyiwa vipimo kitaalamu iwapo amepona.

    Watanzania tusiwe wajinga kiasi hiki.
     
  2. h

    hoyce JF-Expert Member

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    ndio maana yake. taarifa haikusema 'watu 200' imesema wagonjwa 200 na watafanyiwa utafiti kwa 'vigezo vya kitaifa na kimataifa'. Usichoelewa hapo nini? Huwezi kumwita mtu mgonjwa ila kumpima kwanza.
     
  3. Riwa

    Riwa JF-Expert Member

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    Nakubaliana nawe Counterpunch...nimeshawahi kuhusika na majaribio ya tiba mbali mbali, na tangu jana nimeangalia ile taarifa ya habari najaribu kufikiria study design ya hiyo trial ili iwe na scientific validity na nashindwa kujua ni ipi! Labda upeo wangu bado ni mdogo (kitu mabacho siamini) lakini nadhani tutaishia kupewa results ambazo hazina msingi wa kisayansi, na hazitaweza jadiliwa kisayansi kutokana na mapungufu katika njia ya kufanya huo utafiti wenyewe.
     
  4. Kimbunga

    Kimbunga Platinum Member

    #4
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    Nadhani hao ni wataalamu tuwape nafasi tuone watakuja na nini. Sasa kama watawapima watu ambao awali hawakupimwa kuonyesha kama walikuwa wagonjwa na baada ya kunywa kikombe wakapimwa na kuonekana wamepona, basi utakuwa si utafiti wa kisayansi bali itakuwa sawa tu na uganga wa kienyeji tu. Ila jana kuna kauli nillisikia ikanichanganya kidogo; walisema kuwa dawa haina madhara kwa kiwango "inachotolewa" na kwa taarifa walizonazo hadi sasa. Ina maana dozi ya kikombe ndio dozi sahihi, ikizidi ina madhara au?
     
  5. WomanOfSubstance

    WomanOfSubstance JF-Expert Member

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    una point ila je, unataka kumaanisha kuwa wanaoenda kwa babu hawaumwi - utajitesa hivyo kweli uende huko wakati hauumwi?

    Unajuaje kama wameambiwa walete historia ya magonjwa yao na tiba waliyokwishapata? sidhani mamlaka ya serikali kama hii ni wajinga kiasi unachofikiria.
     
  6. M

    Mandi JF-Expert Member

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    na mtu kama sio mgonjwa haendi akapimwa lazma ufahamu hlo nawewe!
     
  7. PakaJimmy

    PakaJimmy JF-Expert Member

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    Kama uliona taarifa ya habari jana ni kwamba kundi fulani kati ya hao 200 ni wagonjwa wa UKIMWI wakijiita WANAHARAKATI ambao wako chini ya NGO fulani, na wanasema wazi kuwa wameamua kuondoa utata uliopo juu ya tiba ya babu!
    Kwahiyo Ndugu CounterPunch usiwe skeptical bila msingi!
     
  8. M

    Mandi JF-Expert Member

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    Wanasema dawa inauwezo wa kuponya magonjwa sugu matano ukawauliza wanasema ni kisukar na kensa hayo mengne niyapi
     
  9. S

    SELEWISE Member

    #9
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    nadhani hiyo nsample ya watu 200 itakua ni walke wenye vyeti vinavyothibitisha maginjwa yao ni vzr ili kuondoa utata, tusubiri tuone jamani ili wengine tuklie hii doubt...
     
  10. sweetlady

    sweetlady JF-Expert Member

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    wasimsahau na Jk cz ye ndo alkunywa mwanzoni kabisa.
     
  11. H

    Haika JF-Expert Member

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    Mar 29, 2011
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    Tatizo ni study design au ni la mtoa habari?
    sidhani kama wanaweza kuanzisha research bila kuzingatia mambo madogo ya kimsingi kama haya. Wako makini sana katika research, ila tu kutumia matokeo ya research za maana zinazofanyika ndio huwa siasa inaingia.
    Hebu kuweni kidogo na imani na wataalamu.

    Kuponya magonjwa mengi mi naona inawezekana kabisa, kwani active ingrediants kwenye hata haya madawa tunayopewa, mara nyingi zinafanana ila tu siasa na biashara ndio zinafanya kusemekeana ni dawa tofauti.
    Mimi nina waamini watendaji wa kisayansi wa Tanzania sana, basi haya mambo yetu ya siasa
     
  12. Eeka Mangi

    Eeka Mangi JF-Expert Member

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  13. S

    SeanJR Member

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    Nashukuru kwakujitambua upeo wako ni mdogo,hiyo imenizihirishia according to your thread!! Wagonjwa wamepimwa kabla na baada yakupata kikombe cha babu watapiwa tena na hapo 2tapata uzibisho yakinifu!! Umeipatapata mkuu...
     
  14. Riwa

    Riwa JF-Expert Member

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    Haika...unapoevaluate efficacy ya dawa yeyote ile lazima iwe specific kwa ugonjwa fulani, hii dawa inantibu kisukari, shinikizo la damu, kansa, UKIMWI, kifafa, pumu etc...sasa utaevaluate efficacy kutibu ugonjwa gani? Kuna study design inayoruhusu hayo magonjwa yote yachunguzwe kwa pamoja? which one? Kila study design ninayojaribu kufikiria hapo inahitaji uwe na control group (NB: bila ya control group you will never ever be able to show the effect, you must have an intervention group (walio/watakaopewa dawa) na control group (ambao hawatapewa dawa au watapewa placebo ambayo hapa inawezekana ikawa ni dawa zao za kawaida za hospitali), then unacompare the set of outcome katika hizo group mbili...sasa wamesema wagonjwa 200 waliopewa dawa watashiriki (intervention group), sijasikia chochote kuhusu control group! Will they have a control group kwa kila ugonjwa unaotibiwa na dawa hiyo? how many? Wamefikia vipi hiyo 'sample size' ya watu 200? Hiyo sample size ya watu 200 ni kwa ajili ya magonjwa yote ambayo dawa inatibu au kila ugonjwa ni watu 200? Is it enough to show the effect of the drug and try to generalize to the general population?

    Kuna maswali mengi sana kwenye methodology ambayo watatumia ili kuweza kuonesha ufanisi wa dawa hiyo...mind you, hayo majibu yanatakiwa yawe ya kisayansi ambapo nchi kadhaa zenye mmea huo wa calisa eduris waweze kutumia kama referrence kwenye tafiti au tiba. Kama sisi tulivyotumia tafiti kuhusu mmea huo zilizofanyika Kenya na Asia, basi tutoke na kitu ambacho dunia inaweza ikajifunza na sio siasa siasa tu!
     
  15. Riwa

    Riwa JF-Expert Member

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    Watu tunatofautiana upeo na inawezekana wangu ni mdogo...lakini kwa hiyo response yako hapo juu nimegundua upeo wako wewe ni mdogo zaidi kiasi cha kwamba huwezi kabisa ona mapungufu na changamtoto katika muundo mzima wa huo utafiti unaoongelewa hapo. Pole kwa hilo.

    Unapotafiti dawa, issue sio kupima tuu halafu ukatoa dawa, ukafuatilia na kusema kuwa mgonjwa amepona au la...its so much more than that my Junior bro! The big question is always 'How can you attribute the outcome of that patient to what you are claiming can treat?'. By chance, mgonjwa anaweza akajiskia nafuu lakini sio kwa sababu ya dawa yako. Sasa unapodesign study ya kuonyesha efficay ya dawa kisayansi lazima uzingatie hili.
     
  16. Baba_Enock

    Baba_Enock JF-Expert Member

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    Wanaoenda kwa Babu wanaumwa ila hawajawahi kwenda hospital kuhakiki wanaumwa nini?

    Kwa mfano wengine wanaenda kwa Babu kupata kikombe kwa maana alishawahi kutembea na muathirika wa UKIMWI au alishafiwa (mke/mume) ... It more of a "pyshcological sickeness" rather!
     
  17. Mlachake

    Mlachake JF-Expert Member

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    JF ni tamu Jamani.

    Hii inanifanya niizidi kuipenda JF kulingana na hizi Changamoto za kila siku.

    Hata kama Serikali yetu inatuangusha katika mambo mengi, Tusiidharau to this extent.

    Mimi siamini, na sitokaa niamini, kama hawa watu 200 watakao pimwa hawana historical background ya magonjwa yao.
     
  18. M

    Miruko Senior Member

    #18
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    Ripoti ilisema hivi:

    1. Kwa hatua tuliyofikia na taarifa tulizo nazo za dawa hii mpaka sasa, tumeandaa na tunakamilisha taratibu, ili tuweze kufuatilia maendeleo ya kiafya ya wagonjwa 200, ambao wamekubali kwa ridhaa yao wenyewe, kushiriki katika utafiti huu, ili kuona maendeleo yao kiafya, baada ya kunywa dawa ya Mchungaji mstaafu Ambilikile Masapila, kwa maradhi walionayo. Hatua hii, inafuata vigezo vyote vya Kitaifa na Kimataifa.

    Labda kama mimi sijui kusoma, lakini ripoti hii haisemi kama wanatafiti kuona kama dawa inatibu magonjwa haya, bali wanataka kuona kama wagonjwa wamepona. Haya mambo ukiangalia kwa jicho la kidaktari yanafanana, lakini kwa watalaamu wa sanaa, ni tofauti. Kwa kalu hii hakutakuwa na kuangalia dawa ina madudu gani ndani, bali watachunguza kama wenye ukimwi, kisukari, pumu, kansa na maradhi mengine (waliothibitika) kisha wakanywa dawa ya babu, na baadaye kupimwa tena wamepona au la. msisahau, dawa hiyo (kwa mujibu wa babu) haitibu yenyewe pia kuna nguvu za Mungu ambazo hazionekani kisayansi.
     
  19. Riwa

    Riwa JF-Expert Member

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    Swali kubwa hapo ni kuwa...kuna uthibitisho gani kisayansi kuwa hao wagonjwa waliokunywa kikombe cha babu wamepona au la kwa sababu ya kikombe hicho (attribution)? Kama jinsi ulivyodesign utafiti wako hutaweza kujibu swali hilo kisayansi, then huo utafiti mzima ni upotevu wa gharama na muda! Ili kujibu swali hilo kisayansi, ni lazima uwe na kundi litakalokunywa dawa..ukalinganisha matokeo yake na kundi lenye ugonjwa huo huo na kufanana mambo mengi kuhusu ugonjwa huo lakini hawakunywa dawa hiyo! Thats the international standard...
     
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