Waliotandikwa viboko Ikulu hawa hapa

[Jasusi]

Hiyo million range ya Bluray si ni genocide hiyo? Au...?

Julius,
I would think so and the western world, which was not a darling of JKN would not have been quiet. That is my point.

 

[Bluray]

Klerru was killed by a farmer who was angry after Klerru followed him on his farm on sunday. Othman Sharif and Hanga were killed by Karume. Unless you want to say Karume and Nyerere were the same person! Next time clarify basi. Kama wangekufa mamilioni unadhani ulimwengu wa kibepari ungekaa kimya na jinsi walivyokuwa wanapinga ujamaa? We may never know for sure the exact figure simply because that exact figure does not exist.

Ukisoma utaona nimesema jinsi Nyerere alivyoua indirectly, na utaona jibu la swali lako kuhusu Kleruu, Hanga na Sharif.

Cold War politics ziliwapa mabepari wa west a lopsided approach towards human rights, ndiyo maana Mobutu kaua kichizi lakini Nixon alikuwa anamsifia.Kwa hiyo si kweli kwamba mabepari walikuwa wana a dedicated unflinching interest in human rights.They were just happy Nyerere was a closet Maoist and not an open one, they were just happy Nyerere did not give the strategic Zanzibar to the commies for a military base.

We may never know for sure the exact figure simply because that exact figure does not exist

Exactly my point, the figures do not exist even thou the killings took place.

Julius this does not fit the legal definition of genocide, Nyerere was more of a failure who killed through negligence and mediocrity than an intentional killer.

The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Julius this does not fit the legal definition of genocide, Nyerere was more of a failure who killed through negligence and mediocrity than an intentional killer.

Okay, but don't you think accusing Nyerere of killing a million souls, albeit indirectly (as you put it) is over the top?

 

[Jasusi]

Ukisoma utaona nimesema jinsi Nyerere alivyoua indirectly, na utaona jibu la swali lako kuhusu Kleruu, Hanga na Sharif.

Cold War politics ziliwapa mabepari wa west a lopsided approach towards human rights, ndiyo maana Mobutu kaua kichizi lakini Nixon alikuwa anamsifia.Kwa hiyo si kweli kwamba mabepari walikuwa wana a dedicated unflinching interest in human rights.They were just happy Nyerere was a closet Maoist and not an open one, they were just happy Nyerere did not give the strategic Zanzibar to the commies for a military base.



Exactly my point, the figures do not exist even thou the killings took place.

Julius this does not fit the legal definition of genocide, Nyerere was more of a failure who killed through negligence and mediocrity than an intentional killer.

" A failure who killed through negligence and mediocrity". I like this one. Typical Pundit (oops!) Blueray. So if anyone died albeit a natural death during ujamaazation Nyerere is to blame. Let me see, in 1967-74, at the height of villigization there were between 12 -15 million Tanzanians. And if a million of these perished during villigization how come there has not been even a one relative who has come out in these times of uwazi na ukweli kulalama? Where are they?

 

[Mag3]

Ukisoma utaona nimesema jinsi Nyerere alivyoua indirectly, na utaona jibu la swali lako kuhusu Kleruu, Hanga na Sharif.

Cold War politics ziliwapa mabepari wa west a lopsided approach towards human rights, ndiyo maana Mobutu kaua kichizi lakini Nixon alikuwa anamsifia.Kwa hiyo si kweli kwamba mabepari walikuwa wana a dedicated unflinching interest in human rights.They were just happy Nyerere was a closet Maoist and not an open one, they were just happy Nyerere did not give the strategic Zanzibar to the commies for a military base.



Exactly my point, the figures do not exist even thou the killings took place.

Julius this does not fit the legal definition of genocide, Nyerere was more of a failure who killed through negligence and mediocrity than an intentional killer.

Your use of the terms negligence and mediocrity has left me wondering as to your actual motive. I dont know how old you were then but, what ever is fueling these ridiculous and absurd assertions you are making, I believe not a single one is based on any facts but rather on immaturity, fallacy and hatred on your part son.

I, for once, never agreed with Nyerere's policy but never doubted his intentions for better life for all Tanzanians if not all mankind at large. His intolerance to the greedy and those who cherished the monopolistic way of life, built him enemies but endeared him to the needy who formed the bulk of the population of the young nation.

Like him or hate him, his name lives amongst those who history will serve justice and remember as a soldier who spear headead what's become to be known as UTU WA MTANZANIA.

 

[Bluray]

" A failure who killed through negligence and mediocrity". I like this one. Typical Pundit (oops!) Blueray. So if anyone died albeit a natural death during ujamaazation Nyerere is to blame. Let me see, in 1967-74, at the height of villigization there were between 12 -15 million Tanzanians. And if a million of these perished during villigization how come there has not been even a one relative who has come out in these times of uwazi na ukweli kulalama? Where are they?

You either fail to understand the difference between "natural causes" induced deaths and "failure and negligence" caused deaths.

Watu wameua watu (Kleruu) wewe unasema kulalama tu. Watu walalame uwasikie wapi wakati for all those years outlet zote za Nyerere, na mpaka leo hawa wapinzani feki nao wanaingia kwenye bandwagon la kum deify Nyerere.

Nenda bush huko kaongee na vibabu vilivyosurvive villagization vitakupa story jinsi walivyofanyiwa unyama, watafute kina Sozigwa rafiki zako wakupe mkanda.

 

[Bluray]

Your use of the terms negligence and mediocrity has left me wondering as to your actual motive. I dont know how old you were then but, what ever is fueling these ridiculous and absurd assertions you are making, I believe not a single one is based on any facts but rather on immaturity, fallacy and hatred on your part son.

I, for once, never agreed with Nyerere's policy but never doubted his intentions for better life for all Tanzanians if not all mankind at large. His intolerance to the greedy and those who cherished the monopolistic way of life, built him enemies but endeared him to the needy who formed the bulk of the population of the young nation.

Like him or hate him, his name lives amongst those who history will serve justice and remember as a soldier who spear headead what's become to be known as UTU WA MTANZANIA.

Unaelewa context ya negligence na mediocrity vis a vis intention? Nani kasema Nyerere alikuwa na intention mbaya?

Unaweza kuwa na the best intention, lakini ukiwa mediocre and/ or negligent halafu uko kwenye power ukaleta ma policy ya ku copy paste kutoka kwa Mao, watu watakufa. Tumesika watu alioua Stalin, tumesikia alioua Mao, wa Nyerere ni vigumu kuwasikia kwani wengi wao walikufa kwa njaa na magonjwa, na bongo hakuna aliyeandika haya.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

You either fail to understand the difference between "natural causes" induced deaths and "failure and negligence" caused deaths.

Watu wameua watu (Kleruu) wewe unasema kulalama tu. Watu walalame uwasikie wapi wakati for all those years outlet zote za Nyerere, na mpaka leo hawa wapinzani feki nao wanaingia kwenye bandwagon la kum deify Nyerere.

Nenda bush huko kaongee na vibabu vilivyosurvive villagization vitakupa story jinsi walivyofanyiwa unyama, watafute kina Sozigwa rafiki zako wakupe mkanda.

Man, GTFOH....

 

[Jasusi]

You either fail to understand the difference between "natural causes" induced deaths and "failure and negligence" caused deaths.

Watu wameua watu (Kleruu) wewe unasema kulalama tu. Watu walalame uwasikie wapi wakati for all those years outlet zote za Nyerere, na mpaka leo hawa wapinzani feki nao wanaingia kwenye bandwagon la kum deify Nyerere.

Nenda bush huko kaongee na vibabu vilivyosurvive villagization vitakupa story jinsi walivyofanyiwa unyama, watafute kina Sozigwa rafiki zako wakupe mkanda.

Kwa sababu wewe ndio unaovijua hivyo vibabu vilivyosurvive villigization kwa nini wewe basi usiende ukatupe stori isiyo biased? Mimi nikienda utasema I am trying to whitewash Nyerere's mediocrity. Nenda wewe usiye na bias utuletee nothing but the truth, no? But I have an inkling hata ukienda wewe hao vibabu ni figments tu za imagination za Nyerere bashers.
P.S. Sozigwa was not a Nyerere basher, kwa hiyo hata huo mkanda unaodhania hana.

 

[Zungu Pule]

Your use of the terms negligence and mediocrity has left me wondering as to your actual motive. I dont know how old you were then but, what ever is fueling these ridiculous and absurd assertions you are making, I believe not a single one is based on any facts but rather on immaturity, fallacy and hatred on your part son.

I, for once, never agreed with Nyerere's policy but never doubted his intentions for better life for all Tanzanians if not all mankind at large. His intolerance to the greedy and those who cherished the monopolistic way of life, built him enemies but endeared him to the needy who formed the bulk of the population of the young nation.

Like him or hate him, his name lives amongst those who history will serve justice and remember as a soldier who spear headead what's become to be known as UTU WA MTANZANIA.

By the way, umeisoma article (peer reviewed) aliyoi-post Bluray?

 

[Abdulhalim]

By the way, umeisoma article (peer reviewed) aliyoi-post Bluray?

Uswahili

 

[Nyati]

Kuhusu kuua huyu mzee hakuwa muuaji hata kidogo. Hapa tumpe haki yake kabisa. Hata wale waliostahili kuuawa yeye hakusaini wauawe. Katika uongozi wake wa zaidi ya miaka 20 nasikia alisaini wauawe watu wawili tu ( ambao hata wewe ungesahini). Ina semekana mmoja alimuua binti yake ili apate malipo ya bima.

Vile vile nakumbuka Marehemu Mohamed Babu (RIP) kusema kuwa Nyerere alimwokoa asiuawe, hivyo alikuwa anawajali hata watu wengine mzee wa watu.

Kwa upande wa kuwatandika Bakora kama ilivyoanishwa na TBC katika kipindi chake Mimi siungi mkono kabisa, nafikiri hapa alipotoka. Mwanzoni nilifikiri ni porojo kumbe wapi.Hii inaonyesha ni jinsi gani akishaona jambo lina manufaa,.alikuwa anajituma kupita kiasi kuhakikisha jambo hilo linatekelezwa.

Kwa ujumla mzee huyu alikuwa na nia nzuri kabisa karibu katika kila “move” aliyoianzisha mfano JKT, vijiji vya Ujamaa n.k. Lakini katika kila jambo kuna uzuri na ubaya wake. Kwa vijiji vya ujamaa ukitembelea vijiji vya nchi nyingine kama Kenya na Uganda ndipo utajua uzuri wa wazo lile. Huku kwetu kuna mpango angalau lkn kwa wenzetu ni tofauti kabisa.

Tukirudi nyuma kuna mtu kaongelea porojo juu ya viongozi wetu wakuu, hasa Mwl. Na mzee Kawawa kweli kwa watanzania “Documentation” ni sifuri. Mambo mengi ya uongo yanasemwa, kwa kuwa hakuna anaye yakanusha yanaonekana ya kweli wakati sivyo.

Mwisho mjadala huu ulianzishwa kwa nia ya kupata mawazo ya watu juu ya mambo yaliyojiri siku za nyuma, Hii itatusaidia wakati mwingine tukipewa nafasi tujue jinsi ya kukabiliana na changamoto mbali mbali katika utendaji kazi.

Majina yaliyotumika mwanzoni BMW na JKN ni ya kusadikika tu kwa nia ya kuanzisha mjadala na kichwa cha habari kwa nia hiyo hiyo pia.

 

[WildCard]

Mkitaka kufahamu mazuri ya Mwalimu angalieni yanayotuandama sasa hasa baada ya yeye kuwa ameondoka hapa DUNIANI. Angalau nimemsikia Msekwa jana akikiri hadharani kuwa walikosea kuiacha MIIKO na MAADILI ya UONGOZI alioiacha Mwalimu.

 

[Baba_Enock]

Wachangiaji wanajiumauma lakini the fact is, haya mambo yanayotokea sasa (RUSHWA na UFISADI na e.t.c) yametokana na sera MBOVU za Nyerere! Inawezekana alikuwa na nia njema lakini kwa hakika tumefika hapa tulipo kwa sababu utekelezaji wa nia yake ulikwenda mrama!

Sijui ni watanzania wangapi wanaoafiki kuwa Nyerere alistahili kuitwa "Baba wa Taifa" lakini tungekuwa HURU kufanya utafiti na angalau kuruhusu "kura ya maoni" kwenye jambo hili wanaoafiki wanaweza kuwa 40%! (unashangaa nini?)

 

[WildCard]

Wachangiaji wanajiumauma lakini the fact is, haya mambo yanayotokea sasa (RUSHWA na UFISADI na e.t.c) yametokana na sera MBOVU za Nyerere! Inawezekana alikuwa na nia njema lakini kwa hakika tumefika hapa tulipo kwa sababu utekelezaji wa nia yake ulikwenda mrama!

Sijui ni watanzania wangapi wanaoafiki kuwa Nyerere alistahili kuitwa "Baba wa Taifa" lakini tungekuwa HURU kufanya utafiti na angalau kuruhusu "kura ya maoni" kwenye jambo hili wanaoafiki wanaweza kuwa 40%! (unashangaa nini?)

Nafasi hiyo ya pekee kwenye Taifa hili hakuiomba, tulimpa sisi Watanzania kama muasisi wa Taifa hili, hakutuibia wala kutufisadi, alituunganisha, tukaongea lugha moja, alituachia NCHI BIKIRA kabisa kwa MALIASILI na RASILMALI. Tukasoma bila MIKOPO wala KARO,.........

 

[Bongolander]

Wachangiaji wanajiumauma lakini the fact is, haya mambo yanayotokea sasa (RUSHWA na UFISADI na e.t.c) yametokana na sera MBOVU za Nyerere! Inawezekana alikuwa na nia njema lakini kwa hakika tumefika hapa tulipo kwa sababu utekelezaji wa nia yake ulikwenda mrama!

Sijui ni watanzania wangapi wanaoafiki kuwa Nyerere alistahili kuitwa "Baba wa Taifa" lakini tungekuwa HURU kufanya utafiti na angalau kuruhusu "kura ya maoni" kwenye jambo hili wanaoafiki wanaweza kuwa 40%! (unashangaa nini?)

Baba Enock naomba kupingana na wewe. Mimi napingana sana na siasa za ujamaa, lakini ni muungaji mkono wa sera ya kujitegemea. Naamini Nyerere alikuwa na sera nzuri, lakini utekelezaji wa sera hizo ulikuwa mbaya, hakukuwa na msingi wa utekelezaji wa siasa ya ujamaa na sera ya kujitegemea.

Nyerere ni baba wa taifa kwa kuwa alikuwa muasisi wa Jamhuri ya Muungano, yeye na Karume ndio walikuwa mababa wa taifa letu. Whether he was good or bad, that is a different matter all together. Whether tunaafiki au la yeye ni baba wa Taifa. Mbona ufisadi wakati wa utawala wake haukuwa mkubwa sana kama sasa, na ulikuwa haulindwi kama sasa. Kwa sababu alikuwa "baba" ambaye alijaribu kwa njia zote kupambana na vitendo vya namne ile.

 

[Baba_Enock]

Nafasi hiyo ya pekee kwenye Taifa hili hakuiomba, tulimpa sisi Watanzania kama muasisi wa Taifa hili, hakutuibia wala kutufisadi, alituunganisha, tukaongea lugha moja, alituachia NCHI BIKIRA kabisa kwa MALIASILI na RASILMALI. Tukasoma bila MIKOPO wala KARO,.........

Kusoma bila MIKOPO wala KARO na nchi ikiwa BIKIRA hilo haliwezekani duniani popote labda TANZANIA! na ndiyo maana nimesema sera zake ndiyo zimetufikisha hapa! NUKTA

 

[Baba_Enock]

.. Mbona ufisadi wakati wa utawala wake haukuwa mkubwa sana kama sasa, ...

- A journey from Bukene ilianza lini?
- A journey from Igunga ilianza lini?
- "Wahujumu" uchumi walikamatwa lini vile? Unafahamu ni kuwa walukuwa wamekwiba pesa nyingi sana na kujilimbikizia billions kuliko v-EPA and what happened to EMSokoine?
- Hivi ni kwanini Nyerere alipigana vita na Amin?

ahaha - tanzania bwana - Matatizo yetu yameanzia wakati wa Mwalimu: vi-EPA na vi-RICHMOND is just matokeo ya utawala wa ki-dicteta!

 

[Bluray]

Kwa sababu wewe ndio unaovijua hivyo vibabu vilivyosurvive villigization kwa nini wewe basi usiende ukatupe stori isiyo biased? Mimi nikienda utasema I am trying to whitewash Nyerere's mediocrity. Nenda wewe usiye na bias utuletee nothing but the truth, no? But I have an inkling hata ukienda wewe hao vibabu ni figments tu za imagination za Nyerere bashers.
P.S. Sozigwa was not a Nyerere basher, kwa hiyo hata huo mkanda unaodhania hana.

FYI Sozigwa mwenyewe kasema hili publicly kwamba walichemsha na watu walikufa needlessly. Usifikiri ninapull names out of thin air. And this was his secretary, we unabisha sasa.

 

[Bluray]

Baba Enock naomba kupingana na wewe. Mimi napingana sana na siasa za ujamaa, lakini ni muungaji mkono wa sera ya kujitegemea. Naamini Nyerere alikuwa na sera nzuri, lakini utekelezaji wa sera hizo ulikuwa mbaya, hakukuwa na msingi wa utekelezaji wa siasa ya ujamaa na sera ya kujitegemea.

Nyerere ni baba wa taifa kwa kuwa alikuwa muasisi wa Jamhuri ya Muungano, yeye na Karume ndio walikuwa mababa wa taifa letu. Whether he was good or bad, that is a different matter all together. Whether tunaafiki au la yeye ni baba wa Taifa. Mbona ufisadi wakati wa utawala wake haukuwa mkubwa sana kama sasa, na ulikuwa haulindwi kama sasa. Kwa sababu alikuwa "baba" ambaye alijaribu kwa njia zote kupambana na vitendo vya namne ile.

Nilishawahi kusema hapa, this hoopla about ujamaa na kujitegemea is hogwash, a contradiction at best.

Hakuna ideology inayoweza kutekelezeka katika a mass scale bila ya kuwa personalized kwa individuals.Ideologies zote kubwa zinaweza kuwa reduced and practiced na individuals. Huwezi kusema mimi ni mkristo katika congregation yangu Jumapili lakini nikirudi nyumbani sina dini, utakuwa unadanganya watu, kama wewe unashiriki congregation ya wakristo, unasali, unakiri imani, unatakiwa uweze ku practice ukristo huu individually,Vivyo hivyo katika ujamaa na kujitegemea, hatuwezi kuwa nchi ya "ujamaa na kujitegemea" wakati hata mmoja wetu at the individual level hawezi ku practice ujamaa na kujitegemea, kwa sababu the two are mutually exclusive.Like oil and water they never mix.

Sasa tuambieni ujamaa na kujitegemea utau practice vipi at the individual level.

Msingi wa ujamaa ni kufanya vitu pamoja, in essence kutegemeana.

Msingin wa kujitegemea ni kufanya vitu mwenyewe uwe self sufficient.

The two are mutually exclusive and cannot be practiced together, kwa hiyo hizo zilikuwa ni hoopla tu za Nyerere zilizojaa kwenye idealism na vitabu lakini hazikuwa practical. Ndiyo maana tume fail kiuchumi.