Dismiss Notice
You are browsing this site as a guest. It takes 2 minutes to CREATE AN ACCOUNT and less than 1 minute to LOGIN

Tusichokijua kuhusu kujaamiana

Discussion in 'Mahusiano, mapenzi, urafiki' started by Rutashubanyuma, Jul 12, 2011.

  1. Rutashubanyuma

    Rutashubanyuma JF-Expert Member

    #1
    Jul 12, 2011
    Joined: Sep 24, 2010
    Messages: 61,428
    Likes Received: 492
    Trophy Points: 180
    [​IMG]
    Rihanna, 'whooping up her love for whips and chains.' Photograph: Rex Features

    Mara nyingi tunaamini ya kuwa wanaumme hutaka kuzamisha sana mkuki na huku akina dada hupendezewa na kushikwashikwa ili wapandishwe ashiki
    ...............lakini imani hizi zimetiwa dosari na utafiti kwa wapenzi ambao wamekuwa wakiishi pamoja kwa muda mrefu....................................

    Utafiti huu umebaini yafuatayo:-

    a) Kwa mwanaumme ndoa bila sex huhesabu kuwa ni mfu..........................................

    b) Wanawake kadri wakuavyo/ kuzeeka ndivyo ni rahisi kufikishwa watakako kwa sababu hawana mashinikizo ya kulea watoto, kufikiria matatizo ya uzazi.........au hata ya kiuchumi .....................na hivyo ni rahisi kuridhika kwenye sex..................kuliko walivykuwa bado wangali kinda.......................

    c) Kiujmla sex huwaridhisha na kunoga pale ambapo wahusika wamekuwa pamoja kwa muda mrefu hususani kama wako kwenye middle age................................where sex really get better with time as the more the couple are living together....................

    kama waswahili wasemavyo.....................................old is really gold...........................................

    Kwa hiyo makinda wanapoona mambo hayaendi watakavyo wajue ya kuwa mashinikizo ya kimaisha kama vile khali mbaya ya kipato, hofu ya mimba zisizokusudiwa, khofu ya magonjwa hatarishi........................................na pale watoto tayari wapo...........hata upatikanaji wa skuli fees................vyaweza kuchangia kulifanya tendo lote la sex kuwa na mushkeli kwa sababu mawazo ni vigumu kuwepo pale kama kuna kero ambazo ufumbuzi wake haujulikani................................................
     
  2. Rutashubanyuma

    Rutashubanyuma JF-Expert Member

    #2
    Jul 12, 2011
    Joined: Sep 24, 2010
    Messages: 61,428
    Likes Received: 492
    Trophy Points: 180
    [h=2]Comments in chronological order (Total 124 comments)[/h] Post a comment
    • [​IMG]Staff
    • [​IMG]Contributor


    • [​IMG] IvyLeague 12 July 2011 3:25PM

      we don't actually know very much about how much sex matters in ongoing partnerships.
      Ah the royal 'we' again. I am fully aware of the importance of sex in my own relationship thank you very much and have little or no interest in the importance of it in other peoples relationships.
      Everyone is different. I daresay some people will think their relationship is on the rocks if they and their partner aren't at it like rabbits every night whereas I'm sure some are happy with once a month.


    • [​IMG] PeteQuentin 12 July 2011 3:26PM

      I have been married for many years and have a busy, exciting and active sexlife
      If the wife finds out she'll kill me.


    • [​IMG] thetowncrier 12 July 2011 3:28PM

      Do we really need another survey to help us 'understand' sex? More to the point, will any such information be of practical use when you're actually having it? Spitting out general 'truisms' about genders is a sure mood killer, and will detract from the intimacy of the moment.
      In my experience, the best way to good sex is understanding the partner you're having it with, being open about either of your sexual needs, and being good at it in the first place. In my experience, this comes about from frank and brutal honesty, from being fit and healthy (it's no good getting tired when the moment requires a lengthy session), and from self-control, particularly as a man.


    • [​IMG] cafedescargot 12 July 2011 3:29PM

      Great article and when you say:
      One other, encouraging way that the Kinsey report went against expectations was by showing that women became more sexually satisfied as they got older (the researchers guessed that this might be a result of children growing up relieving stress on mothers, while reduced anxiety about fertility made sex more enjoyable for women). And the really heartening finding was that, when relationships lasted, they seemed to get better with time.
      ......
      ...... on the other hand it might be something to do with practise makes perfect. And if you can achieve perfection in an illicit few moments snatched from a busy day, what better way of demonstrating the unique pleasure of sex?


    • [​IMG] RodneyBooze 12 July 2011 3:31PM

      Very unusual article, for which I commend you. It ain't easy being forced into ceilibacy, despite doing everything you can to make it right.


    • [​IMG] elflojo84 12 July 2011 3:34PM

      Well I've never made it past a year (well ... a year and 10 days) and never co-habitted, so my response is pretty ill-informed in terms of the long-term sexual relationships you focus on. Nonetheless:
      It shouldn't be shocking to hear that sex is important, and those who are forced to live within the restricted means of a beloved partner's limited libido are often very unhappy; but it is, because the voice of honest, faithful frustration so rarely gets a platform. And when people like the rejected husband do get an answer on problem pages, it's rarely a sympathetic one.
      I'm not sure the 'problem pages' really provide a cross-section of sexual relationships, even of problematic ones. Obviously for one thing they do not cover the relationships which are working fine sexually - this might be a minority, it might be about 50-50, it might be 99.9%, we don't know. And of those couples who do have issues, most are not going to turn to "Dear Deidre" for advice. And of those that do, most will be rejected by the editors. In fact, I think these advice problems probably reflect a combination of what the readers expect sexual issues to be like; and weird, freaky ones they get a kick out of reading about.
      Whether the voice of honest, faithful frustration gets a platform in the media doesn't seem that improtant to me, compared to whether it gets a voice within the relationship. I guess (*advice column standard cliche advice alert*) really the only useful advice for anyone is, talk about it. And if you can't talk about it, try and talk about why you can't talk about it. And if that doesn't work, you just have to decide whether the good bits of the relationship counter-balance that or not.



    • [​IMG] RichJames 12 July 2011 3:37PM

      "Have you considered, asks Mariella Frostrup of a man whose wife has refused to have sex at all for two-year stretches, that you might actually be a bastard?"
      Thereby demonstrating in a single stroke why her views on love, passion, and desire matter so little.
      Good, insightful article Sarah. People are entitled to say that they're unhappy. It's not a crime to say that you want more out of life than drudgery.


    • [​IMG] Hedberg1 12 July 2011 3:37PM

      'sex is the honey that binds a relationship together'
      a relationship without sexual intimacy is a friendship
      and no sex is the sure sign a relationship is dead or dying - unless there are specific reasons why, and both parties accept them.
      It really is the age-old problem though isn't it?


    • [​IMG] Processedpea 12 July 2011 3:38PM

      The only sex education I ever received was to make sure it was always "Man on top" in bed, to ensure I followed this rule I bought bunks.

    • [​IMG]
      [​IMG] IsabellaMackie 12 July 2011 3:39PM

      Good article and interesting to debunk the typical 'what have you done wrong?' assumption, when someone is celibate against their will.


    • [​IMG] RichJames 12 July 2011 3:39PM

      Thetowncrier:
      Spitting out general 'truisms' about genders is a sure mood killer, and will detract from the intimacy of the moment.
      well, in all fairness, I don't think the author was suggesting the unhappy lovers should take a copy of Naomi Woolf's collected works to bed. It seems to be asking a question of conventional wisdom and its views on male sexuality. Given the general view of male sexual desires on CIF, I think it's a god-send, frankly.


    • [​IMG] cbarr 12 July 2011 3:41PM

      Men might say they want cuddles but couldn't that simply be the issue of a gender stereotype that denies them. In that women can ask for intimacy on a level men sometimes feel they are unable to leaving it as a forlorn longing secretly built up in the mind. Mainly because were expected to be cold hearted bastards. Anyway i'm inclined to agree it seems very cruel in a relationship to place sex off the table indefinably and even crueler to simply refuse to talk about it in those circumstances I'd urge the man in the equation to leave the women she clearly doesn't care about his needs or feelings.



    • [​IMG] lporter 12 July 2011 3:43PM

      I've been in relationships where I've gone off sex with my partner, and I used to think it was worth "hanging on" and working through it. I realise now it's because I just don't want/fancy that partner any more, so I've ended it. OK, that makes me sound like a massive bastard, and it's probably the main reason why I've never had a cohabiting LTR (along with not wanting children). But for me, life is too short to be with someone I don't want to have sex with any more (either because he's not great at it, or I don't fancy him etc)
      I'm now in my mid-30s and definitely going through that "sexual peak" we women are meant to have. Sometimes I feel weird for not having got married or hit any of those supposed KPIs we women are "meant" to hit, but in all honesty I'm not willing to settle down with someone if it means a lifetime of crap sex. If/when I settle down, it will be with someone who I want to have regular sex with, and who wants to have regular sex with me.
      I guess if I wanted kids or needed someone to support me/buy a house with etc, I might feel differently. But I don't, so... *shrug*


    • [​IMG] peterfieldman 12 July 2011 3:46PM

      Every generation thinks they invented sex yet it has been with us since mankind began. May I suggest taking a look at the Moche civilisation in Peru two thousand years ago at the same time as the Roman Empire was at its height. They had remarkable sexual lives making erotic art and pottery which can be found in Peru's museums, just like the murals in Pompeii.
      So if we need to learn about sex travel back in time.


    • [​IMG] Processedpea 12 July 2011 3:47PM

      Friendship is a form of interpersonal relationship, which makes a nonsense of Hedberg1's post
      "a relationship without sexual intimacy is a friendship and no sex is the sure sign a relationship is dead or dying"
      There is more than one type of "relationship" and not every type requires sex to ensure it's continuance.


    • [​IMG] ringtaillemur 12 July 2011 3:48PM

      Excellent article. I have noticed on the problem pages of the Guardian that men get an unfair bashing when they express their fustration in sexless relationships, being called selfish and told to to like it or lump it. Women who complain about a lack of sex on the other hand are given support by their sisters and told to sling him out for a more randy suitor.



    • [​IMG]
      [​IMG] EvaWilt 12 July 2011 3:49PM

      One other, encouraging way that the Kinsey report went against expectations was by showing that women became more sexually satisfied as they got older (the researchers guessed that this might be a result of children growing up relieving stress on mothers, while reduced anxiety about fertility made sex more enjoyable for women). And the really heartening finding was that, when relationships lasted, they seemed to get better with time.
      I can testify to the long lasting relationship getting better with time, though suspect that may be down to many factors apart from sex. As for older women being more satisfied, I should think that's down to not being quite so hung up about your body's 'failings' and more able to be relaxed and comfortable.



    • [​IMG] Betamale 12 July 2011 3:50PM

      It's actually pretty reasonable to expect sex to be a continuous part of a relationship; the partner who's being unreasonable is the one who's decided on their own that physical intimacy is over
      Amen!
      Mind you, this attitude is often described as a 'sense of entitlement' on CiF.


    • [​IMG] elflojo84 12 July 2011 3:50PM

      lporter:
      Sometimes I feel weird for not having got married or hit any of those supposed KPIs we women are "meant" to hit, but in all honesty I'm not willing to settle down with someone if it means a lifetime of crap sex. If/when I settle down, it will be with someone who I want to have regular sex with, and who wants to have regular sex with me.
      Good shout. I often think one of the primary reasons for bad relationships is people thinking they should conform to certain expectations they are just not suited to. A woman who marries someone she's not fussed about because she's nearing 30 and he just happens to be the guy around. People with no solid relationship who marry "for the sake of the kid" after an accidental pregnancy. Men who get married because monogamy is seen as the default, even though they are not naturally monogamous people, adn spend the next 30 years screwing around. I think we'd all be happier if the social expectations for relationships were a bit less rigid.



    • [​IMG] elflojo84 12 July 2011 3:53PM

      Men don't need a partner to achieve orgasm. Nor do women.
      Well you don't "need" a partner to watch a movie, or to play golf, or to cook and eat a delicious meal or any number of other pleasant activities. I think most people agree there's something missing if you do all these things alone though, no?
      You're right abotu cuddling of course, although you don't mention the myriad possibilities of pillows...


    • [​IMG] HerrEMott 12 July 2011 3:54PM

      I was amazed and not a little disturbed at the popularity of chimping between consenting partners.



    • [​IMG] metalvendetta 12 July 2011 3:56PM

      Hm, another article that's at least superficially sympathetic to male sexuality. Written by a woman, of course, but unless I've missed the reports of freak arctic conditions in the underworld of Hades then that's only to be expected.
      I was in a relationship (probably about four years in) where my partner decided that sex was no longer part of the relationship. Then again, she also promised that there was nothing going on between her and her ex-colleague - the same one I found her with in my flat when I returned unexpectedly from a party. Of course, they've since got married, but that's another story.
      It's something that can destroy a person's self-confidence utterly - I remember feeling completely rejected and empty at the time. These days I count myself very lucky that I have an understanding partner whose libido more or less matches my own.

    • [​IMG]
      [​IMG] sarahditum 12 July 2011 3:56PM

      @Cbarr - there's so much more that it would be good to learn about relationships, and so many ways it would be good to unpick the norms and assumptions that influence them. So that's a really good question. For the person who asked why we need surveys to understand sex and relationships - well, partly because people are interesting and it's nice to learn more about them; and partly because the more we know about how people really feel and behave, the more we can adapt our ideas to be sympathetic and generous to others. Including others with whom we have relationships.


    • [​IMG] Juicylicious 12 July 2011 3:58PM

      When I first started out I thought all you had to do was make a lot of noise and shift around a bit. Turns out I was right. I'm a woman by the way. Just in case anyone was wondering.


    • [​IMG] Casiguapa 12 July 2011 3:58PM

      The flip side is when the dislike/refusal of sex is coming from a deeper and more fragmented place, but the partner (despite being told several times it is not personal) takes it as a slight on themselves, placing an unfair burden on the other to "perform" or feel bad that they just don't want to have sex.
      In a LTR, people can confuse a loss of sex drive for a sign the relationship has come to an end but, as someone said above, whilst sex is important in a relationship, it shouldn't be a dealbreaker.


    • [​IMG] Spoutwell 12 July 2011 3:59PM

      "even if it doesn't lead to sex; and for her, it's an investment towards a contented middle age where the sex begins to get really good"
      Pull the other one.


    • [​IMG] Processedpea 12 July 2011 4:00PM

      @ringtaillemur
      12 July 2011 3:55PM
      What's chimping? I daren't google it as I'm at uni atm.
      Chimping's a load of shit.

    • [​IMG]
      [​IMG] sarahditum 12 July 2011 4:00PM

      @metalvendetta Hmph. Well I'm sorry you'd have liked this piece better if I had a penis. For what it's worth, I don't think this *is* a clean male/female divide - don't drop your linen, but it's entirely possible to for a woman to have a higher libido than her male partner. I think it's more common to find the opposite situation, but pretending it's a one-way business is stupid.


    • [​IMG] Processedpea 12 July 2011 4:01PM

      "When I first started out I thought all you had to do was make a lot of noise and shift around a bit. "
      That's the best description of Morris Dancing I've ever read!


    • [​IMG] Spoutwell 12 July 2011 4:01PM

      "When I first started out I thought all you had to do was make a lot of noise and shift around a bit. Turns out I was right. I'm a woman by the way. "
      I've been trying that for years but I still end up feeling unfulfilled.
      I'm single by the way.


    • [​IMG] Nicola6 12 July 2011 4:02PM

      Well I did google it... here's what urbandictionary had to say... bizarre either way...
      1. chimping

      What one does after taking a picture with a digital camera and looking at the result. Derived from the words they speak when chimping: "Ooo-oo-oo!"
      Locals: Stupid tourists and their stupid chimping.
      Tourists: Ooo-oo-oo! Look at Jane in front of car! She so pretty!
      2. The act of gaining sexual pleasure by throwing ones excrement at ones sexual partner, like chimps in the zoo
      did a spot of chimping last night and spent all this morning with rubber gloves and domestos cleaning up , it was worth it though


    • [​IMG] Newbunkle 12 July 2011 4:04PM

      So it's not just me then? I love intimacy and I've often enjoyed sex without penetration taking place. I can't even say penetration is my favourite part. In fact, there are time I've felt under pressure to do it when I'd be happier skipping it and doing something different.


    • [​IMG] Spoutwell 12 July 2011 4:04PM

      metalvendetta
      Been through similar let-downs. The 'lucky' bit is that you're a million times better off away from emotional vampires.



    • [​IMG] Finisterre 12 July 2011 4:05PM

      Good article. We definitely need to get past the stereotypical views about sex that still so often prevail. Men don't always want it all the time and with anyone, and women don't always need to be persuaded, etc.
      Many couples have mismatched libidos and it isn't always the man or the woman. Piling on the pressure based on these stereotypes hurts everyone involved.


    • [​IMG] ringtaillemur 12 July 2011 4:06PM

      But WHY????? It's so smelly and goes against basic instincts.
      Well I shouldn't judge other consenting adults, but.... gross!


    • [​IMG] Darkblade 12 July 2011 4:10PM

      I definitely feel there is something wrong if one partner doesn't feel like sex any more, unless it is to do with a known medical issue or medication they are on. If your partner has stopped fancying you physically / sexually then that's a massive worry! Ok so most of us aren't models and we're all getting older but still...


    • [​IMG] Spoutwell 12 July 2011 4:11PM

      "Talk to your wife about sex"
      Yeah, in between the ongoing discussion on tiling the bathroom and cleaning the patio. Should do wonders for your libido.
      Haven't the experts noticed that couples escape from relationships in order to find someone who'd rather have sex than talk about it?


    • [​IMG] Fungolo33 12 July 2011 4:12PM

      Many couples have mismatched libidos and it isn't always the man or the woman
      You might want to get the dog spayed.


    • [​IMG] saintmeat 12 July 2011 4:14PM

      This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.



    • [​IMG] GenerallyHappy 12 July 2011 4:19PM

      I've been married a long time to a truly wonderful woman, who decided sex had served its purpose when our child was born. That was nearly 20 years ago.
      Our life is generally very happy, I love her very dearly and we look after each other, but it's very difficult, as the article states, when one of you is still interested in having a sex life and the other isn't. You know all the things you are supposed to do - be patient, be understanding, try to gently build intimacy back etc. Sometimes and for some people they may work. For me they didn't.
      I ended up tackling the question head on a few years back, and was met with floods of uncomprehending tears - genuine distress - and cries of "I thought we were happy" and "I thought we were past all that sort of thing".
      What can you do - well in my case I had the choice of making a really big deal out of it or, as I did, playing it down as a passing idea that would have been nice, but wasn't critical to our lives together. Things got back to normal again a few days later and the subject has never been mentioned again. But I was depressed and down as a result for some weeks at the realisation that this was how it was going to be forever and my choice was just accept it or risk ending our otherwise happy marriage.
      But it's not just sex that dies away, it is most physical intimacy. It's kissing, it's having your hair stroked, it's snuggling up together on the sofa and so on. As the article rightly quotes - it's not sex I miss either, it's sex with the person I love.



    • [​IMG] Northernbloke 12 July 2011 4:20PM

      There can be few subjects that have had so much bullshit written about them than sexual relationships, some of it well intentioned and some of it with darker motives. As for myself I profess to be no more expert or inexpert on the matter than anyone else, but I suspect that for a couple to achive a healthy intimate realationship that honesty and communication go a long way. Oh yeah, lots of kisses and cuddles dont go amiss either, and if they are really really fortunate love.


    • [​IMG] RodneyBooze 12 July 2011 4:24PM

      sarahditum
      "don't drop your linen, but it's entirely possible to for a woman to have a higher libido than her male partner."
      Indeed. Both the women I have had flings with subsequent to over five years of celibacy (in a partnership which actually still works well in many other ways) have had exceptionally high libidos, and we have had immense fun testing our limits. I think people are forgetting the key word here: Fun.
      If it ain't fun don't do it, but don't expect the world to shut out the fun because you do. There's far too much guilt around having a damn good session with someone (else) you like. And it goes on more often than people care to admit.
      Perhaps you should commission an article by some of those thousands of men and women who get some on the side; and not just the usual hand-wringing bollocks. We get that all over the media all the time like a miserable psalm. About the sheer fun of it. OK, I can forsee the rush of idnignation among my moralising peers, if they found out, not to say the harm it would do to my plationic relationship, were she to find out. But what the hell ? How about some truth for once ? Having affairs, if you're very careful and considerate (yes, this is possible) can be wicked fun and good for the soul. Just a thought.


    • [​IMG] Processedpea 12 July 2011 4:24PM

      @solo
      12 July 2011 4:17PM

      "Not all Agony Aunts/Uncles takew that view...try reading Dan Savage - he has a very strong view on partners witholding sex."
      Withholding sex! Do mean "not wanting", what a strange use of words, speaks volumes as to the attitude of the writer.


    • [​IMG] JohnYardDog 12 July 2011 4:25PM

      @sarahditum
      It shouldn't be shocking to hear that sex is important, and those who are forced to live within the restricted means of a beloved partner's limited libido are often very unhappy;
      True. As are people who live under the demanding regime of a beloved partner's unlimited libido.
      At the end of the day, I guess people just have to find someone (Or someones, whatever. No judgement.) with a similiar level of libido - from the asexual to the hypersexual. If you don't, one or both of you are going to be spending a lot of time pissed off.
      Maybe there should be a universal libido rating and when you go out on a date you could get it out of the way early on.


    • [​IMG] metalvendetta 12 July 2011 4:26PM

      @sarahditum:
      It's nothing personal - I thought this was a good article and your further point that it can be a person of either gender with the higher libido is well made.
      It was more a general complaint about CIF's apparent policy that only women are capable of writing about issues of sexuality. Just for once it would be nice to have a male point of view on such matters rather than being dictated to by a panel of women, some of whom can be outright hostile towards men.


    • [​IMG] engineman 12 July 2011 4:27PM

      Sex, is an animal instinct to procreate, We both just love it, any time any where and boy when she barks........................




    • [​IMG] JohnYardDog 12 July 2011 4:30PM

      Maybe there should be a universal libido rating and when you go out on a date you could get it out of the way early on.
      Get the discussion out of the way early on I mean. Not the actual sex. Most bars frown on you if you just totally start ****ing on the table.


    • [​IMG] elflojo84 12 July 2011 4:30PM

      JYD:
      Maybe there should be a universal libido rating and when you go out on a date you could get it out of the way early on.
      I don't think it'll catch on. When I've tried asking abotu a grils libido on a first date I usually end up with a drink in my face.
      Wait, maybe I;m missing somethign. Is that part fo some elaborate courting ritual?


    • [​IMG] Gelion 12 July 2011 4:32PM

      @lporter
      "I'm now in my mid-30s and definitely going through that "sexual peak" we women are meant to have. Sometimes I feel weird for not having got married or hit any of those supposed KPIs we women are "meant" to hit, but in all honesty I'm not willing to settle down with someone if it means a lifetime of crap sex. If/when I settle down, it will be with someone who I want to have regular sex with, and who wants to have regular sex with me.
      I guess if I wanted kids or needed someone to support me/buy a house with etc, I might feel differently. But I don't, so... *shrug*"

      Well, good luck, as that is what this article is really about, that sex changes over time with your partner - the kind of sex you are talking about, regular, desire filled, exciting sex mostly only happens in affairs or with very new partners.
      Humans are animals - OK, if you want to believe we are not, or a super-animal, then fair enough - but most apes are serial monogamists as humans are. SM is staying with a partner for a few months or years, sometimes many years, and moving on to someone else - or not.
      Marriage is an invention from the first agrarian times and the fixed village and town building that went on 10,000s of years ago as agriculture took off, settling people down into fixed areas. Marriage enabled property and land inheritance to be recognised from parents to children. It enabled a more fixed society, laws and money etc.
      Unsurprisingly this does not fit well with serial monogamy - which is why it was given a religious justification to try to sway people's minds - and in the modern US and Italy, for example, 60%+ of all US married spouses and 50%+ of Italians say that they have had affairs during their marriages.
      This is echoed in the divorce rates in the US, and the UK too.
     
  3. Rutashubanyuma

    Rutashubanyuma JF-Expert Member

    #3
    Jul 12, 2011
    Joined: Sep 24, 2010
    Messages: 61,428
    Likes Received: 492
    Trophy Points: 180

    • [​IMG] Novelist 12 July 2011 6:10PM

      the underlying message here is that if you've tried those things and you're still not satisfied, then you'll simply have to live with sexual starvation, or leave.
      Or find someone outside of the relationship who simply wants a good time. Or go to a sex worker.


    • [​IMG] ammypam 12 July 2011 6:11PM

      GenerallyHappy - keep alert. Women who lose all interest in sex tend to have it suddenly rediscovered by someone else.


    • [​IMG] mountainseagull 12 July 2011 6:12PM

      Women who have had difficult sexual experiences may experience a diminished or zero libido. Not all of them, clearly, but a significant number.
      I don't know how this works for men, but there are loads of woman out there who don't care for sex much because they've had either sex that was abusive, or sex that 'meant well' but was experienced as being painful, invasive or insensitive. Maybe a few times, maybe many times. Maybe that's mostly been their experience. It happens a lot.
      Because of the way woman are made, - ie we are penetrated and 'receive', letting someone inside us can feel quite vulnerable for some of us. (I've learned the hard way to really get to know someone first....) Even more so for a very sensitive woman, or one who has been traumatised or abused in some way.
      Body issues also have an impact on female libido. In fact, loads of things affect it. It isn't just about how attractive you find your partner or even how 'good' they are in bed. (I say 'good' in a tongue in cheek way, of course it's different for each couple what good means.)
      Last but not least, I agree that women want cuddles and men want penetration. At least, that's always been my experience. But then, I am one of those women with a low libido and a rather frightened body who needs to be cuddled a lot to feel safe enough to have sex.
      When that happens, bingo! my libido miraculously appears.
      I guess it's different for everyone.
      But that's how it is for me.

    • [​IMG]
      [​IMG] madeley 12 July 2011 6:17PM

      Ofcourse Frostrup is well palced to give swuch advice..coming from such a good journalistic background..
      same as Z ball..famous dad, get drunk,appear in papers alot, get famous
      S Cox..get drunk,appear in the papers alot, get famous..
      no wonder the world's in such a mess!

    • [​IMG]
      [​IMG] madeley 12 July 2011 6:19PM

      same as K Katona..sing a bit, take drugs, get famous
      The Only Way is Essex..talk common, show lots of flesh..pictured falling out of nightclubs..get famous..

    • [​IMG]
      [​IMG] madeley 12 July 2011 6:19PM

      or
      K Price..show your most intimate parts of your body..shag lots of famous(and not so famous men)..get famous


    • [​IMG] philwolsey 12 July 2011 6:20PM

      It seems a significant omission from the article that the study was of 'mid-life and older' couples, median age 55 for men and 52 for women. This suggests there are some fairly evolved-over-time dynamics at work in the selected cohort (median relationship duration 25 years). The lead author is called Heiman (puerile snigger ;-)
      When couples are in the intense early stages of romantic love, there seems to me to be quite a lot of mutual touching - goodwill is generally high, it's all fresh and exciting, the bodies are usually young and smooth and with the extra hormones of youth, no imagination is required to find the other alluring. The switch from gut wrenching butterflies-in-the-stomach romantic love to the more long-term conjugal love throws up some challenges. Barnacles start to accrue on the hull of the relationship and keeping it well scrubbed so it cleaves through the water isn't easy (I'll stop the metaphors there!).
      The interpersonal and social skills required to talk skilfully about relating are not taught and probably not teachable to the considerable degree that would be required if you don't already happen to have them. The hard disk of the relationship becomes silted up with fragmentation, old files, broken bits of the operating system and crap that is hard to clean out (damn, no, stop the metaphors).
      Whilst the study emphasises it is about couples, the results still seem to be written in a medical model mould: the individuals are described as containing predicates such as 'huggingness' or 'libido'. These could actually be a function of the way the relationship has evolved over time rather than individual traits. In other words these concepts are not actually locatable in one individual or another, but rather, they lie in the relationship space between them.
      For example the woman who seems not to hug, or to notice that her partner might like a hug, could be acting out unresolved resentments that have as much to do with him-as-agent, as they have to do with her. She may, by age 55 have a real downer on her own attractiveness in a world that wants women to go under the knife or inject nerve-paralysing toxins into their foreheads. Whilst she may have swallowed the bunkum that attractiveness is skin deep, and allowed her self-esteem to plummet (seemingly suffering from low self-esteemingness, to add to libidinouslessness, and ahuggingness) actually it could be that he colluded by failing to challenge that particular idiotic idea, and didn't notice the beauty and rampant eroticism in a person who is revered for who they are, rather than for the body they happen to inhabit.
      And so as I quietly reflect on the struggle between Eros and Death I can only conclude it's no-one's fault that we are but chimping flies on the dung heap of life
      Glad to clear that up.



    • [​IMG] degrassy 12 July 2011 6:28PM

      This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.


    • [​IMG] Al3ph 12 July 2011 6:28PM

      Completely agree that it's very difficult for the partner who's being repeatedly turned down for sex, and felt the article's handled this fairly sensitively.
      But it's not the nicest list of adjectives coming out in comments about the partner with the lower sex drive, however - "selfish", "withholding", and so on.
      What exactly is the less libidinal partner supposed to do? Have sex they don't want? Have sex when they're not actually aroused? That's pretty difficult, and it's pretty soul-destroying. (And it's unlikely to be a turn-on for the other person either, to know that it's acquiescence and self-sacrifice, not desire.)
      So the instruction for the less libidinal partner becomes, "Make yourself feel desire." How? Isn't that a bit like telling a depressed person "Make yourself feel happy"? Rekindling the spark is a metaphor, it's not usually a simple matter of going out and buying firelighters.
      Perhaps we could have a little bit less bashing off less-libidinal people, and a bit more recognising of the fact that people may not be compatible this way. All this blaming of the less-desiring partner, when many must be bemoaning their lost sex drives and wondering what on earth to do. Desire is complex and sometimes elusive and sometimes too-present - rarely completely constant over time. Love and relationships are about at least attempting to live through these change together, not just ending it at the first sign of a rough patch.
      Look - even in this comment thread - at the pressure we're under to be "desiring machines", always libidinal, always turned on, always ready for action. No-one here admitting they're anything other than always-lustful, and it's always the Other person who's letting them down.
      This isn't sexual liberation, it's sexual compulsion - an intense pressure to be normal, acceptable, ok. How is anyone supposed to understand their actual desire, their actual libidinality in such a climate as this?



    • [​IMG] squawk7500 12 July 2011 6:48PM

      KermitsAFrog
      12 July 2011 6:31PM
      I wish I was gay

      that should be 'i wish i were gay'
      rather, i wish you were gay
      or, you wish you were gay
      or, you wish i were gay


    • [​IMG] DaveW 12 July 2011 6:50PM

      Good article, but aren't you assuming that it's always the woman who goes off sex. I've been assured that this is not always the case.



    • [​IMG] beccajane 12 July 2011 7:00PM

      Just to put in my two-pennyworth that might possibly help - things don't have to stay the same. With will & effort [sounds awful!] things can improve.
      My partner had a lower libido than I did and things had got to the point where we hadn't had sex for four years.
      I burned with silent & miserable resentment for ages and then spoke out. I said that I wasn't happy, it was obvious we weren't a good fit and it was time to call it a day while we still had chance of finding more compatible partners. [We haven't got any kids.] He thought about it for about a week & decided he would rather stay with me and try to sort things out.
      It took a lot of negotiation, talking, trying things [TMI!] & often getting very annoyed with each other but now we're back BOTH enjoying ourselves. We're in our early 50's and we've never been happier!
      Don't give up & live a barren life without trying to find a way through.


    • [​IMG] Inland33 12 July 2011 7:02PM

      sex sex sex yawm sex more articles about sex and someone else's royal 'we' on relationships and sexual 'behavior' YAWN.
      LOOK . . .
      girls like orgasms . . . so do guys . . . CASE CLOSED.
      see wasn't too hard eh?


    • [​IMG] MaxMarmalade 12 July 2011 7:08PM

      My wife and I sleep in seperate beds, drive seperate cars, go on seperate holidays.
      We're doing everything to keep our marriage together.


    • [​IMG] CrownPrinceRudolph 12 July 2011 7:18PM

      ClareWright
      Trouble is I've never met a man with the same level of desire as me. Where is that man??
      Have you considered some kind of job-share?


    • [​IMG] mattburbidge 12 July 2011 7:22PM

      Sarah,
      A wonderful article. I almost never say this, but: "great journalism!"
      Everyone is indeed different, but there are clich├ęs about the male and female sexes that people often live up to without even realising it. I've been frozen out; and experienced the opposite, where my partner's libido was too much for me. Often, we fulfil the sexual role that we've heard we ought to have- men are supposed to like penetration, therefore they do like it. People's deeper and more personal sexual desires are often repressed below a wall of expectations that they have of themselves.


    • [​IMG] bodge 12 July 2011 7:23PM

      If you eat cheesecake every day you will get sick of it.I think familiarity does breed contempt or boredom for most couples,sexwise.No amount of therapy or sex manuals/education will change this,no doubt ,this being the guardian,it probably needs more funding from the taxpayer to sort it all out.


    • [​IMG] MissReptile 12 July 2011 7:25PM

      I don't think I would ever get in to a LTR with someone who has a significantly lower libido than I do. It's just setting up future problems. And to the poster who talked about the lack of sex that has been going on for years, I feel so bad for you. As you said, it's not just about the sex, it's about connecting physically with the person you love, and not being able to that that can be heart- breaking. So obviously when people say "just leave and find someone else", it's not so simple when you deeply love someone.


    • [​IMG] Arapas 12 July 2011 7:27PM

      @ MaxMarmalade 12 July 2011 7:08PM
      My wife and I sleep in separate beds, drive separate cars, go on separate holidays.
      May I ask, does Your wife own a poodle?


    • [​IMG] wh1952 12 July 2011 7:28PM

      Al3ph,
      Why do you think less-libidinal people are getting "bashed"? It strikes me you are really more annoyed that they aren't getting the free ride they are used to. After all what do have the less-libidinal in their favour? A shed load of excuses for all occasions - too tired, too stressed, got to be up in the morning, boss wound me up today and I can't relax; a shed load of avoidance tactics - falling asleep is a good one, killing the moment with a visit to the toilet another one; and above all they are getting what they want because there is sod all their partner can do. Affairs, visiting prostitutes, if their partner does that then it's never the fault of the less-libidinal one, and let's not even talk of rape within marriage. If their partner even gets cross or moody it's their fault not the less-libidinal one's. In fact the only group who put pressure on the less libidinal partners to give in are those way out islamists of the obediance in marriage mob. And anyway sourly letting their partners have intercourse is victory in the battle too in a way.
      So if the less libidinal are getting a hard time on this thread, well what a shame.


    • [​IMG] onemanandhisparrot 12 July 2011 7:30PM

      ...an international survey of couples for the Kinsey Institute suggests that it's men who thrive on non-sexual physical intimacy, while women are remarkably unfussed about being cuddled.
      Women still don't want sex, it's just that they don't want hugs anymore either.
      Well, they don't want sex with me, at least. Definitely not as often as I do. Which is, of course, every six minutes, with pretty much any woman I haven't had sex with before. Same as every other guy, basically, despite whatever BS he's suckered you into believing.
      If only women could understand our burden.



    • [​IMG] StephenChin 12 July 2011 7:58PM

      Marge Piercy:
      "It's not sex that gives the pleasure, but the lover."
      Marge, how do you separate the lover from the sex?


    • [​IMG] nuisverige 12 July 2011 8:02PM

      wh1952
      Why do you think less-libidinal people are getting "bashed"? It strikes me you are really more annoyed that they aren't getting the free ride they are used to. After all what do have the less-libidinal in their favour? A shed load of excuses for all occasions - too tired, too stressed, got to be up in the morning, boss wound me up today and I can't relax; a shed load of avoidance tactics - falling asleep is a good one, killing the moment with a visit to the toilet another one;
      I have lots more excuses than that, e.g. "I have just had some painkillers for my back and I'm feeling a bit groggy". Another is "I think the dog is whining to go out - back in a couple of minutes".
      If someone has a very low libido, it's not because they choose to be that way, it's often because they don't really like sex. I know that's probably a revelation to some readers, but it's true - some of us really don't like sex.


    • [​IMG] Al3ph 12 July 2011 8:03PM

      @wh1952
      Affairs, visiting prostitutes, if their partner does that then it's never the fault of the less-libidinal one, and let's not even talk of rape within marriage.
      Sorry what? You explain people having affairs or going to prostitutes as a consequence of the other partner's lower desire - are you also saying that rape within marriage is somehow the fault of the less-libidinal partner too? She said no, so I had to rape her, I couldn't stop myself?
      As a feminist I like to think men are adults who can take responsibility for their own actions, and their decision to stay/leave a relationship if it's not working for them.
      You, on the other hand...
     
Loading...