Dismiss Notice
You are browsing this site as a guest. It takes 2 minutes to CREATE AN ACCOUNT and less than 1 minute to LOGIN

Tathmini ya Watanganyika na Tanganyika kati ya mwaka 1400 hadi 1945

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Siasa' started by Rev. Kishoka, Jan 29, 2010.

  1. Rev. Kishoka

    Rev. Kishoka JF-Expert Member

    #1
    Jan 29, 2010
    Joined: Mar 7, 2006
    Messages: 4,396
    Likes Received: 16
    Trophy Points: 135
    Naomba kuwakilisha hoja tuchemshe Bongo na kufanya tathmini ya Watanganyika na Tanganyika tangu mwaka 1400 hadi mwaka 1945.

    Naomba radhi kwa Watanzania wenzangu wa Zanzibar, kwa kuwatenga katika hili, ila michango yeno katika kufanya tathminihii inapokelewa.

    Je historia ya Watanganyika ni ipi? Asili yao ni wapi? Katika kufanya tathmini hii, naomba tuangalie Watanganyika kama watu kwa kutumia vigezo vya mfumo wa kijamii, kiuchumi na hata kisiasa.

    Je historia tunayohadithiwa kila siku ina ukamili wa kweli? Ukiangalia hata miaka 120 ya mwisho, bado kuna utupu mkubwa wa kuwatambua Watanganyika na nchi yao. Tunajua baada ya mkutano wa Berlin, tuligeuzwa kuwa Koloni, kisha kuna kuja hadithi za kina Karl Peters, Abushiri, Kinjekitile, Mkwawa, Milambo, Mangi Meli halafu tunachipuka na TAA, TANU, Nyerere kisha Uhuru.

    Lakini mnaomba turudi nyuma, je jamii za Watanganyika zilikuwa zinaishije miaka hiyo? zilikuwa na mifumo ya namna gani ya kimaisha hasa katika malezi na kujiongoza iwe ni kisiasa, kujizalishia na biashara katika uchumi na mahusiano mengine?

    Siwafichi nawaonea gere wenzetu wa Zanzibar ambao wana historia iliyonona, ambayo inaonyesha wazi wao walikuwa na mfumo gani wa kiutawala, mfumo gani wa kiuchumi na mahusiano ya namna gani ya kijamii ambayo pamoja na matatizo na mizunguko yote iliyotokea Zanzibar, bado wana historia na wanaeleweka na wanajivunia asili yao.

    Nikichukua mfano, je Wanyakyusa, Wamatengo, Wanyiramba, Wachaga, Waha, Wazigua, Wakurya, Wahaya, Wamakua, Wazaramo, Wafipa na kabila nyingin nyingi, je zilikuwa katika mfumo na muundo gani wa kimaisha kabla ya kuingiliana na mifumo ya kieni na hata baada ya kuingiliana na mifumo ya kigeni iwe ni Waarabu, Wagiriki, Waajemi, Wahindi, Wareno hata Waingereza?

    Nasukumwa kujiuliza maswali haya ikia ni shauku yangu si kwa ajili ya historia pekee, bali kujijua kama Mtanganyika na sasa Mtanzania, nafasi yangu na muundo wa asili yangu, fikra , tabia na mapokeo mengine ni ya namna gani na hasa kwa kutathmini kuwa Watanganyika tupo tupo tuu kama vile ni watu wasio na dira au mwelekeo?

    Iweje Wazanzibari wana hazina kubwa si ya kihistoria kwa maandishi tuu, bali hata vitendo vinavyoonekana ambavyo dhahiri kuna sehemu kubwa ni vyao vya asili na si maingiliano na Waarabu au Wazungu pekee?

    Nikijiangalia kama Mtanzania na nafasi na asili yangu kama Mtanganyika, najiuliza, vizazi 10 kabla yangu vilikuwa ni vya watu wa namna gani? Wawindaji, Wahunzi, Wafanyabiashara, au Wahangaikaji wa mwituni? Je upeo wao wa kujituma kufanya kazi, kufikiri, kujiongoza, kuwajibika, malezi ya familia na mengine mengi yalikuwa yanafananaje kabla ya kukutna na tamaduni hizi ngeni ambazo leo ndio tunajivunia kuwa ndio asili yetu mpya?

    Kama tuliamini kuwa kuna Miungu, ilikuwa ni kwa kazi gani na tulianzaje kuwa na imani ya Miungu moto, mlima, mti hata nyoka kabla hatujapewa hadithi za Mtume Muhamad na Yesu?

    Tunapojiangalia leo kama Taifa, je tunarudi nyuma kihistoria kwa umbali gani kujipima tulikotoka na tunakokwenda? Je kama Watu na nchi yetu Tanganyika na hata sasa Tanzania, je tulifanya nini kabla ya Utumwa na Ukoloni ambacho kingetupa utambulisho rasmi?

    Tunafahamu hata miaka 200 iliyopita Wazulu walikuwa na historia. Ukienda Congo ambako ndiko tunaambiwa chimbuko la Bantu Migration, kulikuwa na historia. Je historia na kuwepo kwetu ni kutokana na Shaka Zulu na vita vya Mfekane, au kutoka kwetu kama wahangaikaji kuanzia kule kwa Malkia Nzinga, tukatambaa mpaka Bunyoro na kwa kina Rumanyika na kuishia Idodomiya?

    Changamoto kwenu ndugu zanguni!
     
  2. Rev. Kishoka

    Rev. Kishoka JF-Expert Member

    #2
    Jan 31, 2010
    Joined: Mar 7, 2006
    Messages: 4,396
    Likes Received: 16
    Trophy Points: 135
    Ina maana hakuna Mtanganyika hata mmoja humu ndani?
     
  3. Kiranga

    Kiranga JF-Expert Member

    #3
    Jan 31, 2010
    Joined: Jan 29, 2009
    Messages: 34,583
    Likes Received: 5,629
    Trophy Points: 280
    Rev.

    Nimemaliza kusoma trilogy ya "A History of The English Speaking Peoples" cha Sir. Winston Churchill. Nilichogundua ni kwamba the fact kwamba tulikuwa tunategemea oral tradition ina tu limit sana katika ku establish a credible history. Ndiyo maana wenzetu wakatuita "The Dark Continent".

    Historia chache tunazoweza kupata zimeandikwa na wakoloni, ndiyo maana sanasana utakuta zinaenda miaka 120- 200. Lakini ukiangalia katika historia za Wayunani, Warumi na hata Waingereza wa kale utagundua Tanganyika ilifanya biashara, ya chuma na Uingereza kwa mfano- hata kabla ya kuzaliwa kristo.Katika kitabu maarufu cha Wayunani kinachoitwa "A history of the periphery of the erythraean sea" Wayunani walirekodi kufanya biashara na miji kati ya maeneo ya Tanga around mto Pangani mpaa kufikia maeneo ya delta ya mto Rufiji. Wafalme wa kichina walikuwa wanafanya biashara na watu wa Afrika Mashariki, Tanganyika ikiwemo, walikuja mpaka kuchukua twiga waliopelekwa katika zoo la kifalme la Peking.Hii ilikuwa ni kabla ya kuembrace spirit ya isolationism.

    Narudia tena, matatizo ya ku establish historia Afrika yanatokana na kutokuwa na maandishi.Hata hao Wazulu na Mfecae ni juzi juzi tu, wana historia ndefu zaidi ambayo ina ukungu kutokana na kukosa maandishi.
     
  4. Nyani Ngabu

    Nyani Ngabu Platinum Member

    #4
    Jan 31, 2010
    Joined: May 15, 2006
    Messages: 65,131
    Likes Received: 16,095
    Trophy Points: 280
    Tunaambiwa kuwa Nyerere alikuwa Mtanganyika wa kwanza au wa pili kuwa na shahada ya ya chuo kikuu. That alone speaks for itself.
     
  5. Kiranga

    Kiranga JF-Expert Member

    #5
    Jan 31, 2010
    Joined: Jan 29, 2009
    Messages: 34,583
    Likes Received: 5,629
    Trophy Points: 280
    Just to set the record straight and clear some distortions in history.

    Kuna watu walipata shahada ya Chuo Kikuu kabla ya Nyerere. Nyerere mwenyewe alivyoenda Uingereza alipokelewa na kina Hamza Mwapachu and company waliokuwa washasoma huko.

    Lakini general point kwamba wenye shahada walikuwa wanahesabika ni valid. I wouldn't be surprised kama hata 10 hawakufika.
     
  6. Rev. Kishoka

    Rev. Kishoka JF-Expert Member

    #6
    Jan 31, 2010
    Joined: Mar 7, 2006
    Messages: 4,396
    Likes Received: 16
    Trophy Points: 135
    Kiranga na Omega,

    Je inawezekana kuwa tunajinyima Historia yetu na kuamini tunaloshindiliwa kooni na Mkoloni kama vile Watumwa wa Kimarekani weusi ambao eti kumbukumbu za zwalikotoka hazijulikani zilipo?

    Je ni kampeni maalumu ya kutudumaza kiakili na kijamii (kiutamaduni)?
     
  7. Tumain

    Tumain JF-Expert Member

    #7
    Jan 31, 2010
    Joined: Jun 28, 2009
    Messages: 3,158
    Likes Received: 6
    Trophy Points: 0
    Tanganyika machifu wetu wa kikabila walikuwa na mahusiano na makabila mengine nje ya Tanzania na walikuwa wanatembeleana na kufanya biashara nyingi tu kabla ya wakoloni.

    Kulikuwa na mahusiano ya makbila mpaka na nchi kama ethiopia, sudan na congo
     
  8. Nyani Ngabu

    Nyani Ngabu Platinum Member

    #8
    Jan 31, 2010
    Joined: May 15, 2006
    Messages: 65,131
    Likes Received: 16,095
    Trophy Points: 280
    Itakuwa vyema na kwa faida yetu sote ukiwataja hao "watu" na miaka na sehemu waliposomea hizo shahada zao.

    Pili, kama idadi yao ilikuwa ndogo hivyo (na hapa tunazungumzia kwenye miaka ya 1930s, 1940s na 1950) bado point yangu inabaki palepale kuwa jamii yetu ilikuwa haijaelimika (formal education wise) vya kutosha kuweza kuandika na kurekodi matukio muhimu ya maisha kama zilivyokuwa jamii za ulaya.
     
  9. Kiranga

    Kiranga JF-Expert Member

    #9
    Feb 1, 2010
    Joined: Jan 29, 2009
    Messages: 34,583
    Likes Received: 5,629
    Trophy Points: 280
    Nimeeleza validity ya point yako in general. Kuhusu watu waliopata degree kabla ya Nyerere Tahir Ali alikuwa na degree ya sheria 1949 wakati Nyerere ana diploma ya ualimu ya Makerere. Mwingine ni huyo Hamza Mwapachu.
     
  10. Rev. Kishoka

    Rev. Kishoka JF-Expert Member

    #10
    Feb 1, 2010
    Joined: Mar 7, 2006
    Messages: 4,396
    Likes Received: 16
    Trophy Points: 135
    Lakini hawa tunaowaongelea si baada ya mwaka 1945? Je tukiriudi nyuma tunawezaje kujijengea upya historia yetu katika eneo lote ambalo leo hii tunalitambua kama Tanzania Bara au tangu mwaka 1884 kama Tanganyika?
     
  11. Tumain

    Tumain JF-Expert Member

    #11
    Feb 1, 2010
    Joined: Jun 28, 2009
    Messages: 3,158
    Likes Received: 6
    Trophy Points: 0
    Nafikiri ni vizuri kuangalia makabila yetu yote na uongozi na mipaka ya tawala zao, maana nakumbuka huku kwetu dodoma chief wetu alikuwa na mahusiano mpaka na makabila ya mbali kama Arusha na Kenya..may good starting point
     
  12. Nyani Ngabu

    Nyani Ngabu Platinum Member

    #12
    Feb 1, 2010
    Joined: May 15, 2006
    Messages: 65,131
    Likes Received: 16,095
    Trophy Points: 280
    Kurudi nyuma ya hapo kwa kweli tutakuwa tunabahatisha tu na kuzusha mambo kwa sababu hakuna kitu chochote kilichokuwa recorded na wazawa. Tutategemea accounts za wakoloni na sijui zao ziko sahihi kiasi gani
     
  13. Rev. Kishoka

    Rev. Kishoka JF-Expert Member

    #13
    Feb 1, 2010
    Joined: Mar 7, 2006
    Messages: 4,396
    Likes Received: 16
    Trophy Points: 135
    Omega,

    Yani tunaogopa kubahatisha kutambua asili yetu?
     
  14. Kiranga

    Kiranga JF-Expert Member

    #14
    Feb 1, 2010
    Joined: Jan 29, 2009
    Messages: 34,583
    Likes Received: 5,629
    Trophy Points: 280
    Omega anaongelea credibility.Ukishaanza kubahatisha unakosa credibility. Ndiyo mambo ya hadithi hayo.
     
  15. Ndjabu Da Dude

    Ndjabu Da Dude JF-Expert Member

    #15
    Feb 1, 2010
    Joined: Aug 29, 2008
    Messages: 3,166
    Likes Received: 129
    Trophy Points: 160
    Kwani la ajabu nini hapa? Tafadhali naomba ufafanue kauli yako hapo juu kwa mifano. Kuna assumptions (na presumptions) fulani fulani ambazo ni muhimu kuziweka wazi kwanza hapa. Jee, nini maana ya "Wazanzibari" na nini maana ya "Watanganyika"? Hao Wazanzibari na Watanganyika unaowazungumzia na kuwalinganisha walianza kutambulika hivyo kutumia mantiki gani, nani aliamua hivyo na lini dhana za "Wazanzibari" na "Watanganyika" zilianza kutumika katika mtiririko wa kihistoria? Halafu, tukitumia vigezo vya "kimaandishi", "vitendo" na "uasili" kama ulivyotaja kwenye kauli yako hapo juu, jee, hazina za kihistoria waliyonayo jamii kama ya Wahadzabe au Wamasai ungezilinganisha vipi na ile unayodai kuwa nayo Wazanzibari ? Kwa nini usilinganishe historia ya Wazanzibari na zile za Wahadzabe, Wasukuma, Wamasai au Wamakonde?
     
  16. Waberoya

    Waberoya JF-Expert Member

    #16
    Feb 1, 2010
    Joined: Aug 3, 2008
    Messages: 8,476
    Likes Received: 764
    Trophy Points: 280
    Kama alivyosema Tumaini, the history is there, but is not documented by anyone



    Hypothesis 1,Bantu 2000BC

    Bantu languages inaongelewa na groups kama 400, na source yake ni Nigeria, Cameroon in 2000 BC. ma-group haya yakaanza kusambaa taratibu kuelekea sehemu mbalimbali

    1000BC wakaanza kusambaa , wako waliofika central africa na wengine East africa.

    so kwa haraka ni kuwa Tanganyika kama East africa imekuwa confirmed kukaliwa 1000BC, japo sina hakika kama hakukuwa na watu, maana wamasai, wahadza, wasandawe na wairaq(kabila liko arusha) sio wabantu, they might have another historical background.




    [​IMG](Wikipedia)


    Hypothesis 2, chiefs (1000s??-1800s)

    Refer above;

    karne ya 14 na 15 unayoisema jamii nyingi zilikuwa zimesha settle na kusambaa sana mpaka Zimbabwe, infact nimeshakutana na Mzimbabwe mmoja ambaye maneno yao mengi ya kishona yako sawa kabisa na kiswahili!

    katika karne hii i katika kipindi hiki, wahindi, waarabu walikuwa wanakuja kuja kuchungulia.

    katika karne hizi hakukuwa na taifa la Tanganyika, wala hakukuwa na makabila kama makabila. Kulikuwa na watu wanaishi kwenye taifa lililoitwa hapo baadaeTanganyika

    Tukianza na akina Mkwawa, Rumanyika, Isike, Mirambo, Mangi sina n.k
    Baba yake Mkwawa Munyigumba alifariki mwaka 1898, alikuwa chief. Sio kwa wahehe tu nachukua kama sample, makabila mengi walikuwa wanaishi pamoja, chini ya machifu, kumbuka pia kipindi hiki kulikuwa na migration ya haya makabila from one place to another , kwa mfano inasimuliwa wanyakyusa walikuwa Morogoro na koo zao zilikuwa na undugu na waluguru, baadae wakaanza kusogea Taratibu;However; kuna mvutano mpaka leo kuwa kabla ya morogoro walitokea wapi, kuna wanaosema walitokea South africa na ni result ya mfecane wars, kuna wanaosema walitokea Congo.

    kwa hiyo pamoja na kutokea huko congo au cameron au nigeria, baada ya hwa babu zetu kufika hapa bongo , bado walikuwa wanahamahama kutafuta maisha.

    Kubeba box, wala umachinga ulikuwa haupo, ngoma(ukimwi ulikuwa haupo),

    we were not dark continent!!!! we have interest history, it was paradise ndio maana wazungu, wahindi, waarabu walikuja huku, kwani kwako kungekuwa na raha walifuata nini.

    Ramani ya africa 1000BC to 300AD

    [​IMG]

    Links interested

    [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_peoples[/ame]

    [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Africa[/ame]

    http://cnx.org/content/m17755/latest/

    http://www.metmuseum.org/TOAH/hm/06/af/hm06af.htm

    http://www.worldtimelines.org.uk/world/africa/central_west/1000BC-AD300

    I am not historian, will accept any correction, I am just doing Kishoka's assignment!
     
  17. Kiranga

    Kiranga JF-Expert Member

    #17
    Feb 1, 2010
    Joined: Jan 29, 2009
    Messages: 34,583
    Likes Received: 5,629
    Trophy Points: 280
    Sasa wewe mtu unatoa historia isiyo na hakika, isiyoandikwa, unasema Wanyakyusa hawajulikani kama walitoka South frica kwenye Mfecane au Congo, halafu unakataa kwamba hili si "Dark Continent" in this aspect?

    Hebu tuache uzalendo kwa a second, in this aspect Africa is a dark continent, kwa sababu sio tu wenzetu Warumi wameandika mpaka maneno exact aliyoyasema Caesar miaka kibao kabla ya Kristo, watu kama kina Pythagoras wame document mambo huko Masr miaka 550 kabla ya kuzaliwa masiha, sisi hatujui hata Mkwawa alisema nini miaka 100 iliyopita. Hata huko Masr ambako kuna written history, wakati Wagiriki wanakuja kuchukua ilmu Masr, ilmu ilikuwa inafichwa katika secret societies, wagiriki wanakuja kusoma wanaenda kuieneza kwa masses zao.Sisi tunakandamizana.Hatutaki kupeana ilmu.

    Utakataa kwamba at least in the aspect of history kwamba Africa, at least our part of Africa, si "Dark Continent"?

    Let's not let our Africanness cloud our judgement, let's be brutally honest kwamba neema yetu imetufanya tusiweke umuhimu kwenye literacy, at least in the way literacy is understood now.Na kutegemea oral tradition kumetulostisha kiasi kwamba leo tuna hadithi kibao za makabila, lakini hatujui nini hadithi na nini ukweli.

    For all I care hata wayahudi nao na stories zao za agano la kale ni kitu kile kile, lakini angalau wenzetu walianza kuandika mambo yao zamani, na watu wanaweza kuchunguza.Sisi neema imetuponza.
     
  18. Waberoya

    Waberoya JF-Expert Member

    #18
    Feb 1, 2010
    Joined: Aug 3, 2008
    Messages: 8,476
    Likes Received: 764
    Trophy Points: 280
    Mkuu ebu define 'dark continent' nasema sikubaliani na hili neno, kama wewe unakubali sawa iwe wewe na mnaotaka muitwe hivyo

    eb nieleze maana ya dark continent!
     
  19. Kiranga

    Kiranga JF-Expert Member

    #19
    Feb 1, 2010
    Joined: Jan 29, 2009
    Messages: 34,583
    Likes Received: 5,629
    Trophy Points: 280
    Mbona nishakueleza hapo juu kwamba wakati Caesar anavuka the Rubicon miaka 49 kabla ya kuzaliwa Yesu, watu wanajua kwamba the exact words aliyosema ni kwamba "The Dice is cast", lakini sisi waafrika tunajua - no doubt kwa kusaidiwa na wamagharibi- about the same time wabantu walikuwa wanatoka Nigeria kaskazini na Cameroon ya kusini lakini hata hatujui kama kulikuwa na political units na kama zilikuwapo zilikuwa zipi na kiongozi alikuwa nani na alisema nini?

    Ni simply about details, Africa ni continent la no data available, especially ukiongelea historia (some aspects mpaka leo).

    Sasa nikiwa nasoma historia za warumi na wagiriki kabla yao, naona wanaongelea miaka 2000 iliyopita kama jana tu, kwa sababu wana records.Sisi tukiongelea miaka 100 tu iliyopita, historia za kina Mkwawa, tunaongelea in generalities.Hivi kuna mtu ana any direct quote ya Mkwawa? Hii ni miaka roughly 100 tu iliyopita, lakini hatujui Mkwawa alisema nini.Wenzetu wana record za maneno aliyosema Caesar more than 2,000 years ago.

    Mtu akiliita Africa "Dark Continent" (of course Sub Saharan Africa, Egypt and Carthage is richly documented) in this aspect, kwamba labda lina a lot of rich history ambayo imekuwa forever lost, utakataa?

    Hii thread yenyewe ni testament kwamba Africa is a Dark Continent in this aspect at least.

    I am an African, a proud one at that (ndiyo maana sikubaliani na OPP anaposema "Waafrika ndivyo tulivyo") lakini my sense of realism inaniambia uzalendo una mwisho, kuna kitu kinaitwa ukweli, na no mater how much you may want things to be different, the truth is the truth.

    Afrika kusini kwa Sahara kukosa maandishi kumetulostisha, hili halipingiki. Na pia kuwa na neema amabayo imetupa nchi kubwa isiyo na watu ambayo kwa miaka nenda rudi watu wame subsize kama hunter gatherers imetulostisha.
     
  20. Companero

    Companero Platinum Member

    #20
    Feb 1, 2010
    Joined: Jul 12, 2008
    Messages: 5,392
    Likes Received: 56
    Trophy Points: 145
    "Najua sababu nyingi na matatizo mengi yaliyowafanya baadhi ya vijana na watu wazima wengine wafikie msimamo huu wa kudai Utanganyika. Lakini Tanganyika haitasaidia chochote. Hizi jitihada za kututoa kwenye haja ya kutazama kwa makini sababu halisi za matatizo ya nchi yetu, ili tuseme kuwa sababu za matatizo yetu ni Tanzania, na dawa yake ni Tanganyika, ni jitihada za kunywesha watu kasumba. Na wako Wazalendo tele wenye akili, na ukweli, na ujasiri, ambao watakataa waziwazi kunyweshwa kasumba hiyo" - Mwalimu JK Nyerere, Tanzania! Tanzania! uk 39-40
     
Loading...