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Tanzania needs Social Democracy

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Siasa' started by MwanaFalsafa1, May 2, 2010.

  1. MwanaFalsafa1

    MwanaFalsafa1 JF-Expert Member

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    Socialism in principal is a theory where the economy is government run. On the other hand capitalism is a theory where the economy is run by the market. To me socialism is a rule in favor of the poor against the wealthy and capitalism is a rule in favor of the rich against the wealthy. Like one member in JF by the alias of Abdulhalim pointed out to me that capitalism is winner takes all. So I thought to myself what the middle ground can be. Then I thought of social democracy which essentially takes some elements of socialism and some elements of capitalism.

    Social Democracy is a political theory practiced most notably in Scandinavian countries(Denmark, Norway, Sweden & sometimes Finland and Iceland are also included). And I realized that it made sense. When international lists are produced of quality of life Scandinavian countries lead the way( http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-quality-of-life-map.html), they top the worlds healthiest countries ( http://www.forbes.com/2008/04/07/health-world-countries-forbeslife-cx_avd_0408health.html) etc. They also maintain peace and are highly regarded around the world.

    Now what works for Scandinavian countries may not necessarily work for us but what if we developed a system in which both the government and the market had a definitive role to play? I'm talking about having sectors which would be government controlled and those that can be determined by the market. What I propose is for the government to offer its people the bare minimum, the necessities of life. As this is a political forum I will list a few areas which I believe shouldn't be left up to the market to decided.

    1. Education: As it stands right now a child has to have either one of three things to get an education. 1)Money, 2)High intelligence, 3)Luck. And even a child with high intelligence must have some luck to advance. Why should only those who can afford to go to school go to school? We are missing out on large numbers of children whose skills and talents can serve the nation at a latter stage just because they are not given the chance to go to school. It's a shame that the priority now is for a child to graduate from standard seven. What is standard seven? Nothing! The priority should be that kids can at least attain a form six diploma and those who are smart enough can attend university.

    2.Health: It is sad to think about the people who die needlessly every year just because they can't afford health care. Government hospitals lack equipment and personnel and care is given not on a need basis but on a money basis. Mwenye hela ndiyo anaenda mbele ya msitari. A healthy nation is a wealthy nation!

    3.Social services: Things like pensions should be better regulated. Water & sewerage systems better maintained. Electricity shouldn't be a privilege but basic to every one. Roads & infrastructure should be revamped and improved.

    4. I believe there other areas which need no be regulated properly by the government but sadly I don't have the time and neither the space. I hope my fellow members will help out by contributing to what they believe should be government regulated or market regulated.
     
  2. Ndjabu Da Dude

    Ndjabu Da Dude JF-Expert Member

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    This is obviously easier said than done. Hizo trilioni za shilingi kila mwaka ili serikali iweze kugawa huduma za bure kwa nchi yenye 80% unemployment rate na uchumi duni zitatoka wapi? Kwa mapato gani ya kodi kwenye nchi ambayo basically kila mtu, kampuni, taasisi nk anajaribu kukwepa kodi kwa kadiri ya uwezo wake na serikali haina nguvu ya kudhibiti ukwepaji kodi? Isitoshe kwa nchi iliyogawanyika kitabaka, kikabila, kiutamaduni, kidini, nk kama Tanzania ni vigumu sana kwa sera za Social democracy kuwa implemented.
     
  3. MwanaFalsafa1

    MwanaFalsafa1 JF-Expert Member

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    And there lies our fundamental problem which is a speed bump to a lot of things we could do. Udhibiti mdogo which makes it harder to us to share even the little we have. We can't regulate our resources. If we weren't able to regulate mali za umma for any other reason i would understand but mostly it is do to incompetency. If we look at the amout of money we have figures to(not to mention those stolen and are not public knowledge) you will notice that the funds are there. maybe not to the capacity we need but as a start.
     
  4. Ndjabu Da Dude

    Ndjabu Da Dude JF-Expert Member

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    Hizi political ideologies and political systems za kuiga kutoka Wazungu ndizo zinazofanya nchi nyingi za Kiafrika zidumae tokea uhuru, sababu haziendani na hali halisi za kijamii, kiutamaduni, kimazingira, kihistoria, kisiasa nk. Nilitegemea Wasomi na Wanafalsafa wa Kiafrika kama wewe mngebuni falsafa za kisiasa zinazoendana na mazingira halisi ya Afrika badala ya kulazimisha au kujaribu ku-adapt mifumo migeni kutoka Ulaya kama "Social Democracy". Don't imitate, invent (or innovate).
     
  5. MwanaFalsafa1

    MwanaFalsafa1 JF-Expert Member

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    Now what works for Scandinavian countries may not necessarily work for us but what if we developed a system in which both the government and the market had a definitive role to play? ".

    I agree what works for others my not work for us. But whatever we "invent" or "innovate" won't be entirely new lacking some properties of other ideoligies. That is why I proposed the government regulating some vital & important aspects of the country while market regulate others. It is not easy to come up with a whole new political theory withous scrutinizing the current ones, why they worked or didn't work and what aspects of it might work for us.

    Now the reasons I proposed this theory(remembering that not every aspect of it might work for us) because Tanzanians as individuals are socialist in nature. One person makes it in the family he ttakes care of the whole clan, people contribute to wedding expenses even when it's not of their relatives etc. So we do like doing things for common interest. However we also want to succeed as individuals. This is why I thought that some elements of solialism with capitalism might work for us. SInce there is currently such a theory it was only natural to mention social democracy because having mentioned what I've mentioned anybody who knows anything about political theories would have said what you are describing is social democracy. Now like I said since social democracy takes some aspects of socialism and capitalism it doesn't mean the aspects we chose to adopt have to be the ones from Scandinavian countries. We can come up with our own priorities to tailor fit our own reality and ways of life.

    Coming up with what works for us as a people can only come from debating and scrutinizing each other like we are doing right now. It is an imagiinable to say me as an individual to sit down and come up with a whole theory that works for us as a people all by myself. Like you said in a privious post, we are made up of different cultures etc so it will take a team effort to reach what you want us to reach which is our own ideology.
     
  6. The Boss

    The Boss JF-Expert Member

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    kabla ya yote
    tunahitaji viongozi wenye akili.........

    hayo mengine yatawezekana kama tuna viongozi wenye akili
    ukiwa na viongozi hawa waliopo,nothin will be done.
     
  7. MwanaFalsafa1

    MwanaFalsafa1 JF-Expert Member

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    Since leaders are elected by popular vote in the case of Tanzania, our leaders reflect the voters themselves. We want good leaders we must use our ballots. I remember in my home consituency a few years ago, I think in 2000, we had an unpopular MP. I was a kid then but I heard my father talk about how the people hated the MP and how they wanted him out but come election day non of those who were against him bothered to vote.

    So mkuu I think before we can have smart leaders we need smart voters. Who are the voters? Me and you and all of us.
     
  8. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    Dude this is pretty much the case with Africa we tend to imitate and attempt to adopt what worked for other without measuring, if it fits our purposes. I also do agree with Mwanafalsa when he mentions we can not deny the lines of thinking and policies that have been succesful elsewhere.

    When it comes to Africa we have to learn just like others had to. Lets start by looking at ideologies from the beggining at a time when England had huge influence in our world. It is also the birth place of many of today lines of thoughts.

    When America booted uot the English, though they inherited some of the policies and made them fit for America and not for the English. For instance they chose to continue with the world dominance theme but dropped the 'rigid class structure' and created their own 'American Dream' whereby those in the know will reap the benefit of the society ie scholars, entepreneurs, athletes and a political system. In short what you put in, is what ur likely to receive on the other end.

    It is from these lines of thinking that others adopted, and when the industrial revolution spread into other parts of the world so did the policies and capitalism. Nevertheless countries only took capitalism and formulated policies fit for their societies and not just everything from the English perspective.

    Coming back to Mwanafalsa proposed 'Social Democratic' theory i do not think it would fully work for us. There are many components for failure to name them all and explain them you'd need a book. But the main components to look at are culture and funding of the system. These parts of the word remember do not receive masses of immigrants and have predictable families therefore it makes easy to plan for the future also the people in those parts are less greedy in comparable to white man standards. The scandinavians receive a huge tax cut than anyother societies, that is the basis of their funding in all those sectors you have mentioned.

    As you can see their culture and funding correlates with the development, which also suit the ideology of the region. The same ideology can not suit America, England, Japan or many other parts of the world: especially Africa where selfishness is at the highest in comparable to other continents.

    Remember its selfiness and hatred first among ourselves that is helping outsiders taking advantage of us. I mean take a simple example how can a man in collabaration with outsiders make up a dodgy firm in the name of 'Richmond' or whatever it was to embezzle funds that are supposed to help a million of people receive electricity, companies run their places efficiently and all the benefits that comes with electricity. The sad part its the same money they took from these sufferers' pockets in the first place through taxation amazing.
     
  9. The Boss

    The Boss JF-Expert Member

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    tatizo langu mimi siamini...
    na naamini watu wengi pia hwaamini kuwa
    tunaweza kuwa na uchaguzi huru na wa haki.........
     
  10. MwanaFalsafa1

    MwanaFalsafa1 JF-Expert Member

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    Juma I agree with you whole heartedly and every one else who says we should come up with something suitable for us. However I also believe that we can learn from others and take the good from it. I never intended to mean what I said should be implemented exactly as how I said it. Like previously stated, it will take collecting different ideas and scrutinizing ourselves to come up with something Tanzanian. This was intended to be a starting point if you will, because a debate can't start from out of nowhere.

    Juma mentioned something interesting which is selfishness. Yes Tanzanians tend to be selfish, not just the leaders but the people in general. This can be seen even in offices or even neighbors when one person is willing to jeopardize the good of the whole group just to get back on an individual or few individuals. Then what is the root of this selfishness? Well I think most of it comes from poverty. As we all know when there are fewer resources and more people conflict arises. It arises because it means someone else gaining something means you losing something. And this becomes habitual to the point we see that even the people who are the "haves" continue to do the same because that's the tactic they used to come up and now they believe that's what's going to keep them up.

    So how do we solve this problem? It might be easier said then done. I believe the best way is to educated people to be able to tap into our own resources so they see no need to screw someone over to get ahead. The problem is that we are people who like some of you have stated, copiers. We lack innovation and that can be seen from the government down to ordinary people. The resources are they but it seems that most of us don't do something until it has been done by someone else. The result is we start scrambling for that idea as if there is no other. Lack of vision has caused selfishness which in turn has got us to where we are today. That is the main reason started this post. To brainstorm as to what might be best for us. I highly doubt many will come up with any ideas but most will dismiss those of others.
     
  11. MwanaFalsafa1

    MwanaFalsafa1 JF-Expert Member

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    Mkuu I've heard of that excuse until I've gotten tired of it. I could give you numerous examples of countries which had been ruled by so long by one party with the same unfair elections as you claim but still as a people the were able to use the vote to get rid of them. Look no farther than Kenya. A few years ago couldn't you have said the same thing about Kenya? Bad leaders can be taken out if enough people band together but the problem is we don't. So the problem is again redirected to as the people as the root cause for letting things just happen without doing nothing about it.

    Look at even our struggle for independence. It was brought about by the people saying enough is enough. What do you say about conditions then?
     
  12. Abdulhalim

    Abdulhalim JF-Expert Member

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    Mkulu naona umenikulu hapa..looool..Nway just kuekea msisitizo..Capitalism ni mfumo wa mtu mmoja anashinda na walioshindwa waende nyumbani wakafe njaa..Thats the simplest way to put it. Sadly enough idadi ya 'wanaoshindwa' daima huwa kubwa kuliko wanaoshinda..Na hii haswa ndio basis ya kuufananisha mfumo huu na lile changa la macho liitwalo DECI. Che Guevara put it best kwa kusema unapooongelea kumsimika mtajiri mmoja mfano wa Rocafella unaongelea deprivation ya thousands of people have to loose ili huyu awe mogul..DECI live event.

    Kuongelea sasa proposal yako, nadhani nakubaliana na wewe kwamba serikali lazima idhibiti mambo fulani fulani NYETI..na hii haihitaji uwe msoshalisti au la, it is a cruel worlds outhere mazee, hata nchi za kibapari zinafanya hayo. Mathalan Wachina wanalalamikiwa kila siku na mataifa mengine na sera zao za ku-protect masoko yao, pamoja na kwamba in the other way hawahawa mabepari wa West wanafunga viwanda vyao makwao kuhamishia Uchina kwenda ku-exploit CHINESE CHEAP LABOR ili ku-maximize profit. Daima nipo against na capitalism kwa sababu kuu ni kwamba resources za dunia hazitoshelezi ku-serve greedy ya kila capitalist achilia mbali kila mwanadamu juu ya dunia..so it is fair to say, tunapofikiri kuendeleza watu wetu capitalism should be OUT OF EQUATION. Ukienda kinyume kwamba uanze kuruhusu mambo fulanifulani then inakuwa kaa stori ya ngamia, ukimruhusu aingize kichwa atataka aingize mwili mzima, this is whats happening.
     
  13. Abdulhalim

    Abdulhalim JF-Expert Member

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    Brother Juma,

    Umeongelea suala la funding ktk kueka usawa ktk huduma za kijamii kuhakikisha kila mwanajamii inawshirikishwa ktk kupata huduma muhimu za kijamii, jinsi hawa Scandinavians wanavofanya. Ni kweli kwamba wanawakamua watu wao kwenye kodi nadhani ambayo ni zaidi ya asilimia 30..Mi ni mpenzi wa soka hususan EPL, na nasikia soon top earners footballers inclusive watakuwa wanakatwa 50% ya mapato yao, na majuzikati nilikuwa naongea na jamaa mmoja kutoka Belgium kwamba nao wanaeka the same versio kwenye income tax kwamba the higher the earnings the higher the icnome tax. Mi sioni tatizo ktk hili provided nchi hizi ni tajiri. Nchini mwetu structure za kukusanya fedha is A BIG JOKE. Bongo unaeza ukaishi mwaka mzima unanunua bidhaa BILA RISITI, sasa sijui tunamjoke nani, halafu tunategemea maendeleo yatakuja. Tuna mfumo mbaya wa ukusanyaji wa taarifa kuhusu kila jambo, sio tu mambo ya kodi..it is sad kwamba tunaeza kuketi hapa kuendelea mambo very advanced wakati hatuna hata TAKWIMU SAHIHI, kwenye karibu kila sekta.

    Kuboresha nguvu ya serikali kuhudumia raia, nadhani serikali inatakiwa iwe TOP INVESTOR..igueka kaa baba mfanyabiashara anayewagawia watoto wake mitaji na kuwa-monitor performers yao..Masuala ya mikopo, training, kufunza ujuzi mbalimbali za kada za chini na kati kuhusu ujasiriamali etc etc. Ikiendelea na staili yake ya sasa ya UKUWADI ni wazi hatutofika popote, na within 40-50 years, bomu inayolitengeneza litaripuka, na nchi yetu itakuwa Somalia nyingine.
     
  14. Ndjabu Da Dude

    Ndjabu Da Dude JF-Expert Member

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    Couldn't agree more, JC! And its not surprising at all given the inequalities, divisions, competing values and interests on inherent in a complex heterogenous society like Tanzania's, and the poorly underdeveloped, weak state of Civil society has much to do with these harsh realities.

    That said, we need to fix the basic stuff first before embarking on seemingly worthless, pretentious intellectual discourses on the merits and shortcomings of abstract foreign political concepts like "Social Democracy". Everything else will follow once we have in place decent, robust, vibrant Civil society.
     
  15. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    Kaka Abdulhalim,

    As usual with ya moral support whenever me-dere appreciate it, Ni kweli hiyo income tax yao hawa jamaa hipo juu particulary 'Norway' ndio sababu wana afford that quality of life for all. Lakini si kwamba it is impossible na Nchi zingine za first world kuweza kufanya hivyo hila it all fall down to culture and social concesus (morals, ideology and political directions).

    Mfano nchi kama UK walikua wana aim for almost similar quality of life. Kwanza the UK Welfare state model (the Beveredge Report) ndiyo most developed nations have adopted na wengi wameweka some twists on it to suit them and different ways of funding it (taxing being the main aspect).

    The Scandinavian system is pretty, how it was intendend to function in the first place. Na hii ndio ulikuwa mwongozo wa UK na wao hivi hivi till 'Mrs Thatcher' took office and brought about the 'Thatcherism' (ideology that state should not intervene and people ought to have choices, therefore its not right to fund a welfare state with high taxes for the lazy masses who dont want to participate in the economy activities).

    Aim kubwa hapa ni somehow to imitate the 'American Dream' whilst maintaining the 'rigid class structure'. She encourage entepreneurship and innovation with less taxes. Since taxes determines the amount of money that can be pumped into supporting those who have less quality of life, reducing it (taxes) not only the government reduces the amount of help it can offer. But also cuts have to be made also in the public serviceses (education, hospital, Nyonyo(benefits)) therefore reducing the quality of services offered to those in need of them. Again increasing the inequality gap in the social.

    And that is the basis of most democratic elections tax cuts and tax savings and priorities in spending. Its the role of governments to help those who are left in the cruel capitalims system, they know its a cruel system and the less fit individuals would be victims.

    Sasa hapa ndipo Nchi zingine zina kuja na policies zao mainly due to 'social concesus' utakuta nchi nyingine wao ni kwao na better education system than giving out too much hand outs (Nyonyo) at least with education you give people options mfano hii ndio nguzo ya maendeleo ya Nchi kama Malaysia education, education and people have a fighting chance in the system, people can formulate options available to them and at the end will be able to capitalize in choices available to them.

    Sasa sisi waafrica through those lines we can come up with our system, kwa sababu we have so much untapped in terms of resources lakini hii ni uthibitisho ya kuwa society is still dormant and higly ignorant. In the Economy theory land is everything remember you can not produce that, its the vital backbone of development its what makes or breaks you. But to utilise it you need competition and educated the masses if not all then many to capitalise on it, the rest will follow.

    Sasa usishangae nchi Kama UK kuhamisha maviwanda huko remember hawana viwanda lakini ni central of business in Europe therefore they moved into the money market which is what propels their economy than production these days. Nchi kama China and India they might have also strong economies lakini angalia the government spending not much into its people only infrastructure on places that matter and saving, again what does these two countries have in common highly class societies and depending on producing future leaders from a small clan.

    Ndio inabidi tujue not everything will work for us we need to adapt our way na hii ni impossible without social scientist researches and proposals for our own development. Hao Europeans are much concerned with wealth distribution but do not like to fund that much hii ndio politics zao, walete tax kubwa next election you'd need to cinvince them why they should give you another chance, therefore it is the role of governments to justify spending. Whereby countries in the Scandivians have come to accept higher the higher taxes as the norm.

    When you go to places like Indonesia, Malaysia and North Korea the governments are concerned with building the infrastructure and offer the society highly education for all to compete equally. In other term every one does something to cope with capitalism on their terms, unlike us we think Westerners are supposed to take us out and show us the way. Keep waiting, keep electing non creative leaders and keep ignoring our scholars and waiting it is.
     
  16. MwanaFalsafa1

    MwanaFalsafa1 JF-Expert Member

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    Mkuu Abdulhalim ilibidi nikuquote because you were the reason I started thinking of this. Kama una kumbuka kwenye thread yangu moja iliyo pita we had a discussion about this. What hit me is that maybe I have been in favor of capitalism simply because it has been good to me or rather it has not necessarily been bad to me. I realized that most of us using JF are privileged in one way or another because we can afford the means to come here and debate. I realized that I might be out of touch with the real issues of Tanzanians. I realized that maybe I've been thinking that the world I live in is the same as every other Tanzanian. Needless to say a majority of Tanzanians are not blessed to be able to even voice their opinions like we are doing now.

    So what I did was simply try to put myself in the shoes of the majority of my fellow Tanzanians. Yes some, maybe even a good number of Tanzanians have not succeeded in life simply because they are lazy. Lazy people are everywhere. BUT there also many Tanzanians who have not succeeded simply because they have not been given the opportunity. I believe the government should provide opportunity, level the playing field somehow to allow for those who can excel to excel regardless of their economic background.

    In every country in the world the rule is of the few on the many. Once a person has risen to the ruling elite he/she is not the same as the majority. Some of our leaders are born with silver spoons on their mouths so maybe for them it is hard to truly comprehend the hardships of the normal citizenry. But we also have leaders who come from very humble beginnings. Some of the leaders we have today are there because they benefited from the free education which was been offered due to the policies of Mwalimu. So the question is what happened to them on their way to the top? What made them forget their roots? Did they forget them or simply choose to ignore those roots as if it's an ugly history from their past? I believe in giving back. The leaders have to give back to their people simply because the people are the ones who gave them those offices. it's a simply matter of morality.

    The immediate future I want to see is not that of which every one is rich, that is not possible. I want to see a Tanzania where basic needs are basic rights of everybody and not a luxury. I believe this process begins with us individually. While writing this thread I didn't expect everyone to agree with everything I said or proposed but I believe talking about it is a starting point. I have learned a great deal from reading posts by Juma and even Ndjabu. We have different opinions but by talking about it we can take the best from everyone's opinion and ignore those that don't work. I'm just simply tired of sitting around doing nothing hope that change will magically appear somewhere somehow. My philosophies may be wrong for now but I'm sure in time they will only get better from listening and learning from others.

    Wish I could write more but this will have to do for now. Just a reminder....Tanzania is ours and it will only be developed by us.
     
  17. M

    Mkandara Verified User

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    Hii topic kiboko yake... naisoma kwa mkini sana kabla sijachangia isipokuwa tu nakubaliana sana na Upande wa pili.. hatuwezi kuiga mfumo mmoja wa siasa (kiuchumi) hali sisi ni maskini wa kutupa. In the process tutakacho gawana ni umaskini tofauti na wao wana gawana Utajiri..Lets get out of this mess first, vita yetu ni kutoka below the bar ya Umaskini, ni vigumu sana kufikiria kufanya diet ili hali wewe huna hata uwezo wa kununua chakula, utabakia ng'onda na mdhaifu wa afya. Kukonda kwako itakuwa ni maradhi ya utapiamlo.. Huu ndio uchumi wa nchi zetu, kuiga hakutufai kabisa.
     
  18. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    Mkuu i am waiting for ya post eagerly.

    Ps. JF i know i'm full of typos but not that much one of u mods should stop playing with my text i dont have to be here and im not here to compete quit or i quit i loose nothing.
     
  19. Ndjabu Da Dude

    Ndjabu Da Dude JF-Expert Member

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    Nasema strong Civil society kwanza kila kitu kitafuata baadaye. Tunahitaji taasisi zaidi kama TUCTA. Obviously they are a force to reckon with hadi mtawala anawa-intimidate kwa kuwatishia virungu ili warudi kwenye negotiation table (pamoja na kuweka wazi hata hivyo kuwa hawana lolote la kuambulia) using the clearly misleading presumption kwamba kuitisha mgomo ni sawa na watu kuingia mitaani na kuanza fujo while in fact kubaki nyumbani pia ni mgomo tosha.
     
  20. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    Its only easier kama watu wanajua what they aim to achieve in the end, kazi ya TUCTA ilikuwa ni jikumu la upinzani au wanasiasa wanaojidai ni wapiganaji. Obviously you'd expect Raisi wetu aje na vitisho, the man has no tricks under his sleeves dont forget how he got there in the first place. To me the situation is fuelled by a bunch of people lucky enough to be employed being tired of the system (doesn't satisy me).

    The're still millions out of it (the system) yet to get tired of it, these are the people who think their miseries are due to fate. Believe me if you educate them about politics, revolution would be something that can not be prevented if we get the right leader to educated the masses.

    How can few people play us as puppets on the strings?.
     
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