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Should we create a Wealthy community or create rich people?

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Siasa' started by Rev. Kishoka, Nov 5, 2009.

  1. Rev. Kishoka

    Rev. Kishoka JF-Expert Member

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    Chris Rock stated that "Shaquile O'Neal is Rich, but the person who writed his check is Wealthy"

    Je sisi kama Taifa, tuna msukumo gani wa kuwa yule anayelipa mtu na kuwafanya matajiri na si kuwa wale tunaolipwa?

    Je hali yetu ya kutamani utajiri kwa haraka haraka bila kufanyia kazi na kutoka jasho (creating wealth) itatufikisha wapi?
     
  2. Mzee Mwanakijiji

    Mzee Mwanakijiji Platinum Member

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    Now.. here we have to contrast what is being rich and being wealth.. Do we have a wealth loving culture or a poverty accepting culture? How can people who glorify and sometimes gloat on their poverty be able to embrace wealth as the norm and poverty as an exception?

    What happened to Prof. DeSoto's proposal on urasimishaji wa mali ya wanyonge/maskini like he championed in his native Peru? If I remember well his book was given to senior public officials in TZ and he was invited to give a lecture/seminar of sort on the subject...

    where did all that go? tukikumbatia utajiri tutafanya nini na wawekezaji?
     
  3. MwanaFalsafa1

    MwanaFalsafa1 JF-Expert Member

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    In an economic point of view yes we do need rich people. How does the government get funds to run itself and different programs? The answer is tax. How do you get more tax? The richer a person is the more tax they will pay. I believe if we had a few very rich people who could fund different social programs through their tax money then we all benefit. Tatizo lina kuja kwamba, hizo kodi zita tumika kwa namna itakayo nufaisha wananchi wote au wajanja wachache tu ndiyo wataishia kunufaika? Here we now see that corruption & bad governance sets us back. Know matter how good our visions are, no matter how ambitious we as a nation are, if we don't have good governance then all how hard work, planning etc will be for nothing. Ni mtazamo tu.
     
  4. R

    Ronaldinho Member

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    i agree with you Mwanafalsafa,If we consider wealth from Land and livestock we have,yes we have wealth people in our country,but the question comes,do these people have a right ideas/perception of wealth creation and maintainance?achilia mbali ufisadi wa viongozi wetu....do we think like rich or wealth people?
     
  5. N

    Nyauba JF-Expert Member

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    Prof De Soto alikuja nchini kwa mwaliko wa Mh Mkapa. Alikutana na viongozi waandamizi wa serikali na kuhutubia Bunge.

    Programu ya Mkurabita (PBFP) ilianzishwa kwa lengo la kurasimisha rasilimali (ardhi) na biashara za wanyonge Tanzania.

    Mkurabita ipo hoi kwa sasa ikiwa imefikia hatua ya Reform process kabla ya Capital formation stage kutake off.

    Mh Mkapa ndiye aliyemwelewaa zaidi De Soto na umuhimu wa programme hiyo kwa Taifa. Wengine walikuwa wakimsikiliza tuu muda usonge waendelee na mambo yao (routine issues)..

    Ndo aina ya viongozi na watendaji wa umma tulio nao..Utumishi wa umma ni wakudumu!!! Perfomance na efficiency ni utamaduni usiopendwa wala kukaribishwaa katika sekta ya umma..Hauwapendezi watendaji..

    To become rich and wealth requires performance and efficiency as coupled by commitment and determination....
     
  6. N

    Nyauba JF-Expert Member

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    Prof De Soto alikuja nchini kwa mwaliko wa Mh Mkapa. Alikutana na viongozi waandamizi wa serikali na kuhutubia Bunge.

    Programu ya Mkurabita (PBFP) ilianzishwa kwa lengo la kurasimisha rasilimali (ardhi) na biashara za wanyonge Tanzania.

    Mkurabita ipo hoi kwa sasa ikiwa imefikia hatua ya Reform process kabla ya Capital formation stage kutake off.

    Mh Mkapa ndiye aliyemwelewaa zaidi De Soto na umuhimu wa programme hiyo kwa Taifa. Wengine walikuwa wakimsikiliza tuu muda usonge waendelee na mambo yao (routine issues)..

    Ndo aina ya viongozi na watendaji wa umma tulio nao..Utumishi wa umma ni wakudumu!!! Perfomance na efficiency ni utamaduni usiopendwa wala kukaribishwaa katika sekta ya umma..Hauwapendezi watendaji..

    To become rich and wealth requires performance and efficiency as coupled by commitment and determination....
     
  7. Rev. Kishoka

    Rev. Kishoka JF-Expert Member

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    amjority of the so called rich people in Tanzania are not wealthy and their richness is not through innovation or hard working (self and not salary).

    On the rich people of Tanzania who are from the middle class group you will find Politicians, employees of big companies, few private sector which is service and few industry.

    This group of rich of Tanzania obtain most of their money through Salaries, Allowances, Graft, 10%, and other non innovative means of generating income.

    However we have a group of Tanzanians who are creative and are working hard to create wealth. The only problem is the mechanism and systems around their innovations are complex and clogged.

    Just read this piece from one of local newspapers today on what Tanzania is ranking according to Worl Bank.

     
  8. Ndahani

    Ndahani JF-Expert Member

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    If they had known that in the whole world, performance is gauged by numbers, they would have changed. Tusijilaumu kama tulipo tumefika kwa bahati mbaya. Ni kwasababu tunazembea kufanya yale tunayotakiwa kufanya.Angalia leo hii nani wanadominate kwenye sector nyingi kama sio watu wasio na elimu husika ila ujanja wa lobbying ya kazi na kufadhili siasa.
    Culture kama za waitalia, zile za madon wa mafia wachache kumiliki njia zote kuu za uchumi, huku wengine wote mkiwafanyia kazi wao sio za kurithishana kwenye hii nchi yetu.wasomi waache kuwa watazamaji. Waanze kuingia front kama wamachinga na kupigana kusimamisha vitu ambavyo vitatufanya kujiingizia vipato halali na hivyo kutupa kujiamini kama ni right players wa mambo yahusuyo nchi yetu.
    Ndio maana Italia hata kama hawakubali, wanaenda kwa kusuasua kwenye bara la Ulaya.Uongo hauwezi kuwa muhimili wetu muhimu kama nia ni kujenga nchi takayosimama bila kuanguka, vimbunga vya kisulisuli na moto vikianza kutokea.Maana vipo na vitakuja!!
    Tunahitaji mabadiliko kwa kujituma kufanya kazi
     
  9. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    I dont know how ur going to separate the two in capitalism, they are intertwined social wealthy and individual rewards.

    Owners will always want to keep their talents, after all the talent is one of the most important catalyst in maximising profit. The talent help maximise returns in any business wether its a football team, a techno company, a financial institute, a farm etc, etc.

    Any sensible business man would want to keep his talent in doing so money has to be spent. Well if you dont others will poach him, remember your in competition with others. Therefore the two can not be separated however, the uestion still reamins what about a majority who are not as talented? they still play a role in your profits are they to be ignored, as the hierachy goes down the harder it gets for the employees.

    How do you slove this? Ndio hapo ninapo jiulizaga hivi huyu Mkulo alipewa tuzo huko Uturuki kivipi? iwapo nchi yake ni maskini mno, na kuna watu walikua wana deal na complicated recessions, huku wakisema fiscal inahitajika ni inahitajika au monetary inahitajika ni inahitajika kwani the consequences are severe, all the time watching policies to prevent a quick infalation.

    Hawa jama wanashindwa kutatua tatizo la njaa miaka mitatu sasa eti wanashinda.
    Sitegemei kama wataweza kupunguza the gap in question?

    Ukweli ni kwamba sijui hata kama wanaelewa waanzie wapi..
     
  10. Chapakazi

    Chapakazi JF-Expert Member

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    Wewe binafsi una msukumo gani? Unalisaidaje taifa ku-create wealthy people? Au unasubiri serikali ije ikufanyie kila kitu? In a liberal state...individual freedom is the key! The state is given a night watchman role. Kwa hiyo kama sisi ni a liberal state, then individuals have to create their own wealth. Kama ni socialists, then society takes the priority!
     
  11. Rev. Kishoka

    Rev. Kishoka JF-Expert Member

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    Did I say anything about Serikali? Niliposema Taifa umechukulia kuwa ni Serikali? Kwani Taifa haliwezi kuwa Watu?

    Msukumo wangu ni very simple, use simple and adoptable mechanism and methods while we are in primitive stage to create wealth.

    Lets say SIDO and Gerezani guys, as innovative and industrious as they are, they need a strong foundation and encouragement to promote their products and also improve quality of their products. This will include training, exposure and marketing strategies. Once they have perfected the craft using the primitive tools, and increase output, they wiill have an increase of capital and hence a new beginning to modernize their production and process.

    Same methods can be applies o peasants and others.

    What matters is educating the mass the proper and simple way of being self sufficient.
     
  12. Chapakazi

    Chapakazi JF-Expert Member

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    Mbona umeshtuka nilipotaja serikali? I never said kuwa wewe umesema anything about serikali. I simply asked the question: 'Unasubiri serikali kama hao wengine?'

    Okay...umeandika vizuri. Maybe it will work. But the question remains; What are you really doing about it? Ideas zako unazifanyia kazi au ni kuziweka hapa JF tusifiane? Sorry, but to me this appears to be the reality of JF. Watu wamekuja kujazaa ideas huku, sijui wanashindana ku-post vitu!! But at the end of the day, mmoja wetu lazima aingie shambani na kulima, unless kama kazi yako ni kuhamisha watu...
     
  13. M

    Mkandara Verified User

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    Rev.Kishoka,
    Mkuu wangu lugha unayotumia ni nzito kwa wengi kuelewa.. utanisamehe lakini ni wachache sana wanaelewa tofauti kati ya mtu alokuwa Wealthy na Rich pamoja na kwamba umetoa mfano wa Shark!
     
  14. Chapakazi

    Chapakazi JF-Expert Member

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    Ivi kwenye kiswahili kuna tofauti kati 'rich' na 'wealthy'? Au maneno yote yamekuwa captured na neno 'tajiri'? Tatizo can be linguistic limitations! Kama lugha yako haitambui tofauti kati ya vitu viwili, basi watumiaji wa lugha hawataweza kutambua tofauti ya hayo maneno!!
     
  15. Fixed Point

    Fixed Point JF Bronze Member

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    Yaani tena ukiwataja hawa watendaji mimi ndo nasikia kizunguzungu tu. kwenye hiyo mikutano huwa wanawaza per diem na shoping, huwa hawaendi kujifunza chochote. ndo maana utakuta tuna sera nzuri sana kwenye makaratasi lakini ukimuuliza huyo ambaye anapaswa kutekeleza hizo sera wala hujui; inauma sana. wengine kila siku wanaenda ofisini, tunawalipa mishahara kwa kodi zetu lakini hata hawajui wanatakiwa kufanya nini kwa malipo wanayopata.

    so long as we still have this kind of implementers, it doesnt mater whether we create wealthy community or rich people, the country will remain static
     
  16. UmkhontoweSizwe

    UmkhontoweSizwe JF-Expert Member

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    Rev,
    Tatizo letu siyo watu, tatizo letu ni mfumo. Tungekuwa na mfumo unaowapa watu uhuru wa kutumia vipaji, elimu, ubunifu (siyo ujanjaujanja kama inavyofanyika sasa), nk, kujipatia mapato halali, wala usingehitaji kuuliza swali hili kwa sasa maana matajiri au wealthy people wangejitokeza tu. Binadamu ameumbwa na uwezo wa kujiendeleza na kuyaboresha maisha yake mwenyewe. Ingawa sasa hivi Tz bado watu wamelemaa kujitafutia maendeleo kwa kwa sababu ya historia yetu (kuaminishwa kwamba serikali itatufanyia yote), pindi ukiwepo mfumo (system) "unaowezesha" watu kujitanua mabadiliko yatakuja haraka tu. Wajibu wa serikali unakuja pale pa kutengeneza na kusimamia huo mfumo. Ninaposema kusimamia namaanisha kuhakikisha haki katika utendaji wa huo mfumo, siyo kudhibiti. Ebu fikiria, ni wasanii wangapi ambao wanapoteza mapato ya usanii wao kutokana na kukosa mfumo thabiti wa kulinda haki zao na hivyo kuikosesha serikali mpato ya tax? Jenga mfumo thabiti wa fedha (unaowezesha watu), imarisha utawala wa sheria na kanuni: matokeo utayaona - nchi inabadilika baada ya muda mfupi sana.
     
  17. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    Na unategemea watu hela watazitoa wapi au unadhani asubuhi tu unajiamkia na kusema kesho nafungua sijui kampuni ya nini.

    We unadhani serikali intervention = socialism labda rudi kusoma vitabu tena.Vinginevyo dunia mpaka leo ingekua bado kwenye recession.

    Elewa the role of capital inatoka wapi, elewa the role of supply and demand, elewa the role social spending, elewa role of market basket and affordability in the social, elewa more than a third of tanzanian are in almost absolute poverty (under the current market wengi awa afford), elewa participation yao kwenye market, elewa the role of profit, elewa the situation in tanzania market at the time ndio utaelewa why we are poor and what role the government has to play.

    think before you comment.
     
  18. Chapakazi

    Chapakazi JF-Expert Member

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    Duh....Kazi kweli kweli!
    I wont even bother to go in a debate with u. Maana i simply fail to see the point. Umekurupuka na kuandika ilimradi na wewe uweke comment!! Endelea kusubiri serikali ikasaidie wananchi...
     
  19. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    nilidhani ni open mjadala na wote tunausoma, au JF wame-change rules. We umekuja na kuwaambia watu wanasubiri nini kuliko kutegemea, serikali na mimi najaribu kukwaambia (elimisha) there's a role serikali lazima icheze sio kila kitu ambacho serikali inafanya ni socialism. sometimes its best not say anything, you come up with ideas you cant defend.

    Ni Ulopokaji ndio unaochefua
     
  20. Chapakazi

    Chapakazi JF-Expert Member

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    Mh...in neither of my posts did i say that the govt shldn't do anything! Kama wewe umeelewa hivyo...pole sana! What wld be the point of the govt, kama sio kuhakikisha the game is played fairly? My point was..."What r u actually doing about it", au ni kubaki ukipigana na keyboard? Well i guess u missed it! As most others mtaendelea kupigana na keyboards mkipeana 'thanks', huku mkijifanya wajuaji!
    I repeat, i dont see the point of me debating with you how far the govt shld interfere into individual private property rights. Whether u want to extend the definition of property into the so called 'new property' i.e: welfare rights, as proposed by Reich, etc...it's all up to you! But sincerely...such a debate wld not help to change the life of an ordinary Tanzanian. What we need is more action, and stop crying or waiting for the govt.
     
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