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Saudi's Lashing Old Women; Is it Law or Religion?

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Sheria (The Law Forum)' started by Ab-Titchaz, Mar 10, 2009.

  1. Ab-Titchaz

    Ab-Titchaz Content Manager Staff Member

    #1
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    Saudis order 40 lashes for elderly woman for mingling


    By Mohammed Jamjoom and Saad Abedine


    (CNN) -- A Saudi Arabian court has sentenced a 75-year-old Syrian woman to 40 lashes, four months imprisonment and deportation from the kingdom for having two unrelated men in her house, according to local media reports.

    According to the Saudi daily newspaper Al-Watan, troubles for the woman, Khamisa Mohammed Sawadi, began last year when a member of the religious police entered her house in the city of Al-Chamli and found her with two unrelated men, "Fahd" and "Hadian."

    Fahd told the policeman that he had the right to be there, because Sawadi had breast-fed him as a baby and was therefore considered to be a son to her in Islam, according to Al-Watan. Fahd, 24, added that his friend Hadian was escorting him as he delivered bread for the elderly woman. The policeman then arrested both men.

    Saudi Arabia follows a strict interpretation of Islam called Wahhabism and punishes unrelated men and women who are caught mingling.

    The Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, feared by many Saudis, is made up of several thousand religious policemen charged with duties such as enforcing dress codes, prayer times and segregation of the sexes. Under Saudi law, women face many restrictions, including a strict dress code and a ban on driving. Women also need to have a man's permission to travel.

    Al Watan obtained the court's verdict and reported that it was partly based on the testimony of the religious police. In his ruling, the judge said it had been proved that Fahd is not the Sawadi's son through breastfeeding.

    The court also doled out punishment to the two men. Fahd was sentenced to four months in prison and 40 lashes; Hadian was sentenced to six months in prison and 60 lashes. In a phone call with Al Watan, the judge declined to comment and suggested the newspaper review the case with the Ministry of Justice.

    Sawadi told the newspaper that she will appeal, adding that Fahd is indeed her son through breastfeeding.

    The case has sparked anger in Saudi Arabia.

    "It's made everybody angry because this is like a grandmother," Saudi women's rights activist Wajeha Al-Huwaider told CNN. "Forty lashes -- how can she handle that pain? You cannot justify it."

    This is not the first Saudi court case to cause controversy.

    In 2007, a 19-year-old gang-rape victim in the Saudi city of Qatif was sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in prison for meeting with an unrelated male. The seven rapists, who had abducted the woman and man, received sentences ranging from 10 months to five years in prison. The case sparked international outrage and Saudi King Abdullah subsequently pardoned the "Qatif Girl" and the unrelated male.

    Many Saudis are hopeful that the Ministry of Justice will be reformed. Saudi King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz announced in February a major Cabinet reshuffling in which many hard-line conservatives, including the head of the commission, were dismissed and replaced with younger, more moderate members.

    The new appointments represented the largest shakeup since King Abdullah took power in 2005 and were welcomed in Saudi Arabia as progressive moves on the part of the king, whom many see as a reformer. Among ministers who've been replaced is the minister of justice.

    The actions of the religious police have come under increased scrutiny in Saudi Arabia recently, as more and more Saudis urge that the commission's powers be limited. Last week, the religious police detained two male novelists for questioning after they tried to get the autograph of a female writer, Halima Muzfar, at a book fair in Riyadh, the capital of the kingdom.

    "This is the problem with the religious police," added Al-Huwaider, "watching people and thinking they're bad all the time. It has nothing to do with religion. It's all about control. And the more you spread fear among people, the more you control them. It's giving a bad reputation to the country.


    Saudis order 40 lashes for elderly woman for mingling - CNN.com
     
  2. Kuhani

    Kuhani JF-Expert Member

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    Hii thread ni futile!

    Imeanzishwa kwa nia nzuri kabisa, kujadili sheria versus sharia.

    Lakini itageuka Mohammed alilala na wake vitoto versus Mama Yesu alilala na Baba Mungu!

    Get your popcorn ready!
     
  3. Binti Maringo

    Binti Maringo JF-Expert Member

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    No i think wewe sasa ndiyo umetoa mwanya watu waanz ekujadili hivyo...watch!!!..........
     
  4. Kuhani

    Kuhani JF-Expert Member

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    Kwa hiyo na wewe ume endorse, umetabiri, kwamba tu watch?
     
  5. Binti Maringo

    Binti Maringo JF-Expert Member

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    I think all of the above!....

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2009
  6. M

    Materanus Member

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    Mdau wa kwanza, mi nadhani hiyo ni RELIGIOUS LAW, hiyo ndiyo inayotawala serekali nyingi za kidini hasa ya kiislam.
     
  7. MaxShimba

    MaxShimba JF-Expert Member

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    "having two unrelated men in her house" inashangaza sana kusikia vituko na vioja vya uislam.

    Je, mtume muhammad aliyekuwa na "unrelated women" sawa na timu ya netiboli walimfanya nini?

    Dini zingine ni balaa tupu.
     
  8. Ab-Titchaz

    Ab-Titchaz Content Manager Staff Member

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    Kuhani,

    Sema mkuu mwenzangu. Lemmie put some parameters straight kabla hii kitu haijaelekea kule kusiko. My intention is to highlight the irrelevance of this religious laws in the governance of men. I believe one of the basic tenets of democracy is separation of church and state( read religion and state).

    It just doesn't make any sense why these guys wanna beat a 75yr old lady with a whip just because she was 'mingling' with people of the opposite sex.

    Hapo nd'o sasa naanza kusema 'udini' needs to be reviewed in this context and barbaric practices need to go in the back burner.

    To my muslim brethren, this has nothing to do with posturing one religion over another but just as a mirror that we need to examine and say genuinely if we like what we see.

    Regards
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2009
  9. BAK

    BAK JF-Expert Member

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    Well said Ab-Titchaz...:)
     
  10. Kuhani

    Kuhani JF-Expert Member

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    Ndio kusema mimi ndio huyo Madenge aliyechanganya data anakimbia tangazo la radio. Aloo, and how dare you parody me like that? First of all it is not true ...stop kunipakazia aisee...I don't mind you commenting anything ila kuni paint kama some Madenge. That was not so cool sister. I am a C lister not D lister asiye classy. Oh well, sawa bana, God bless you sister Kelly.
     
  11. Kuhani

    Kuhani JF-Expert Member

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    Ab_Tichaz,

    Heshima mbele, as always.

    You know Tichaz, unasema yasije fika kule kusiko wakati yameshafika!

    Here is the thing Ab_Tichaz, here is the quandary. Topic kama hii ni delicate, tremendously delicate. You are walking on ice ring with no skating cleats on, may fall. Tukianza ku criticize practices which are informed by religious teachings to some people that is direct assail on their God and religion. While in fact the purpose is extremely high minded, very noble, to defend the interests, the rights, human rights, civil rights, natural rights, birth rights of women. What kind of women? Muslim women! How do you do that without coming across as a crusading zealot who is out to assail other people's religion? How do you strike that balance? How?

    Kwa mfano, tukisema Wasaudi wanavyochapa mboko wanawake, au wanavyowakataza kupata drivers license, au mwanamke kusafiri lazima apate ruksa ya mwanamke, na kwamba mwanamke hawezi kuwa daktari (Afghan, Saudi pia nadhani ) hayo mambo ni ya zama za mawe. Halafu wanakuja the MaxShimba's of the world wanasema "dini nyingine bana....dini feki hii...dini gani hii" obviously tuna wa-maindi.

    Lakini ukivuta pumvi ukatulia, utaona kwamba kama kweli, and this is a big kama, kama hizo teachings za kuchapa mboko wanawake zinakuwa informed na dini, kuwatwanga mawe wakiripoti ku repiwa ( Somali last year) kwa kweli hapo then it will not be implausible for a MaxShimba to say "dini nyingine bana..." But that is a very volcanic statement. It stokes mistrust and resentment among ourselves. Na hapo ndio wewe ukaja uliza sasa je hii ni dini au ni sheria za watu wanajitungia? Wanazivisha vibarakashia wanasema ni dini? Valid question.

    Well, last year wakati wa tragedy ya mwanamke wa Somalia nilijifunza kwa mara ya kwanza kwamba kwenye msahafu wa Kuran hakuna palipo ordain adhabu ya mawe. Sijui kuhusu kuwachapa mboko!
     
  12. Ab-Titchaz

    Ab-Titchaz Content Manager Staff Member

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    ...chukulia easy mkuu.I dont think that was her intention in potraying you like
    that basli kuna wengine watafanya hivyo.Just a thought.
     
  13. Ab-Titchaz

    Ab-Titchaz Content Manager Staff Member

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    Kuhani,

    Heshima kwako pa natanguliza,

    My target in this case ni the Royal Family.

    They should take a leading role and lead by example when it comes to shedding these archaic practices. Take for example, we know they love embracing some western cultures(even though they do it in hiding)...mbona hili swala la haki za wanawake bado wanacheza lelemama nalo. Women are human beings equal to men and there is no reason to discriminate against them. Kisha lets be real, how are you going 'whoop' a 75yr old like that? Atakufa kabla hata kipigo hakijaisha maana mwili wa mtu kama huyu umechoka. I dont think the body at that age can withstand all that trauma. Kisha je kama ingekua familia zao je?

    Kwani unataka kuniambia in the house of Saudi, genders don't mix during get together? Only a fool will think otherwise.

    There is a double standard when it comes to a the law in this land and yet they use religion to justify stupid acts like these. The King and his court need to do something or they will lose favor even from the common man.

    As it is Al-Qaeda groups and such like organizations don't like them for their dealings with the 'big Satan'.

    Meanwhile will somebody tell us where the Quran ordains the practice of stoning or whooping folks?
     
  14. zomba

    zomba JF-Expert Member

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    Kama sheria au sharia inakataza, basi yeyote iliyotumika ni sawa kabisa, kwani mwanamke wa miaka 75 hawezi kufanya ngono? soma habari hii ya juzi huko India:

    By STAFF REPORTER
    Published: 03 Jul 2008


    Gran, 70, gives birth to twins

    A 70-YEAR-OLD Indian woman has become the world’s oldest mum after giving birth to twins.

    Omkari Panwar, the wife of a retired farmer, delivered a boy and girl by caesarean section on Friday.

    The frail pensioner, who has two adult daughters and five grandchildren, underwent IVF treatment to produce a male heir to the family’s smallholdings.

    [​IMG]
    Mum ... Omkari Panwar, 70


    Her husband, Charan Singh Panwar, 77, mortgaged his land, sold his buffalos, spent his life savings and took out a credit card loan to finance the treatment.

    “At last we have a son and heir,” he said. “We prayed to God, went to saints and visited religious places to pray for an heir.

    “We kept no stone unturned and God has rewarded us. The treatment cost me a fortune but the birth of a son makes it all worthwhile. I can die a happy man and a proud father.”

    Record

    The twins, born one-month premature and weighing only two pounds each are healthy and expected to survive, according to doctors at Jaswant Roy Speciality Hospital.


    [​IMG]
    Family ... Omkari and relatives



    Omkari, who has no birth certificate and does not know the day she was born, uses the date of India’s independence in 1947 to guess her age.

    She said she was nine when the British Raj left India meaning she is now 70.

    She lives in Muzaffarnagar, seven hours drive north of the capital New Delhi.

    Romanian Adriana Iliescu, who gave birth to a daughter, aged 66 in 2005, is the world’s previous oldest mother.

    After being told she had beaten the record by four years, Omkari said: “If I am the world’s oldest mother it means nothing to me. I just want to see my new babies and care for them while I am still able.”

    Gynaecologist Nisha Malik, who performed an emergency operation on the 70-year-old said: “I was shocked when this old lady told me she was pregnant. I have been practising medicine for 20 years and I have never heard of such a case.”


    Gran, 70, gives birth to twins

    [​IMG]
     
  15. zomba

    zomba JF-Expert Member

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    Saudi Arabia haikatazi Daktari mwanamke, wapo wengi tuu. tafuta lingine.

    Kukataza wanawake kuendesha magari nalo lina sababu zake nzuri tu kwa wakati lilipowekwa. Kwa yeyote aliyewahi kuishi Saudi Arabia hatopingana na hili. Kila sheria inapangwa kutokana na mahitaji na mazingira ya wakati. Na hii isichanganywe na Sharia ambayo ipo wakati wote na well defined na haihitaji marekebisho ya kibinadam. Na ieleweke katika Sharia hakuna inapokataza mwanamke kuendesha gari. Kama Saudi Arabia hawaruhusu wanawake kuendesha magari basi hiyo ni sheria na sio Sharia.
     
  16. F

    Fundi Mchundo JF-Expert Member

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    Soma vizuri kabla hujahukumu. Siku hizi kupata mimba si lazima ufanye ngono! Huyu bibie hakupata ujauzito kwa kupitia ngono. Ni mambo ya sayansi.

    Kumhukumu mwanamke yeyote kuchapwa viboko arobaini kwa kukutwa na watu asio na ujamaa nao ni barbaric in the full sense! Hata u-spin vipi!

    Amandla..........
     
  17. zomba

    zomba JF-Expert Member

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    Kweli, nakubaliana nawe kuwa mimba si lazima kufanya ngono kwa siku hizi (na hata zamani, kwa umri wowote ule, kwani tunao mfano wa Maria Bikira), na mimi nauliza hivi: Jee, mwanamke wa miaka 75 hawezi kufanya ngono?
     
  18. F

    Fundi Mchundo JF-Expert Member

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    Kwani kinachozungumziwa hapa ni uwezo wa kufanya ngono? Mwanamke wa umri wowote anaweza kufanya ngono. Vile vile mwanamke yeyote anaweza kufanya ngono na mtu yeyote bila kujali kama ni baba yake, kaka yake, mtoto wake, binamu yake, rafiki yake, adui yake, mpenzi wake, mteja wake n.k. Uamuzi wa kuchagua nani afanye nae ngono hauendani kabisa na uwezo wake. Kwa hali hiyo , kama kinachokatazwa ni yeye kukutana na watu anaoweza kufanya nao ngono basi wanawake wote wazuiwe kukutana na mtu yeyote ( mwanaume au mwanamke) asiye mume wake. Kwa uhakika zaidi itabidi basi asiruhusiwa hata kubaki peke yake maana uwezo wa kujistarehesha mwenyewe anao! Hii sheria ni ya kipuuzi, period.

    Amandla....
     
  19. M

    Mfumwa JF-Expert Member

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    Apia.
     
  20. M

    Mfumwa JF-Expert Member

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    Sheria za Allah (SW) ziko wazi. Tungepata hukumu ya hiyo kesi tungeweza kutoa maoni yetu tukiwa wazi zaidi jee mahakimu walikosea kutafsiri sheria za Muumba ama la. Hapa tunaegemea habari, ambayo mwandishi anaweza kuandika kwa kufuata utashi wake mwenyewe. Hivyo kujua kulikuwa na haki tungeona mwenendo wa kesi nzima ilikuaje.

    Ukitaka zaidi kujua sheria soma Biblia, aya ifuatayo

    18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. 22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree
    Deuteronomy 21:18-22
     
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