Raila Odinga asema mashoga washikwe na kushtakiwa!!!

[paradox]

"The PM thrilled the crowd when he asserted that the recent census showed there were more women than men and there was no need for same sex relationships."

 

[Kiranga]

Tengeneza uchumi acha hizo distracting longolongo, what's next, utataka ku ban sex before marriage?

 

[MkenyaMzalendo]

The new constitution does not ban homosexuality. It only provides that marriage shall only be between one man and one wife (an ill-advised provision because Muslims can marry up to 4 wives and there are traditionalists who shouldn't be denied their right to marry as many wives as they want).

But one thing is also clear, the constitution does not ban civil partnership for same sex couples. The word "marriage" has been used historically to describe unions between a man and a woman, but nowadays some countries do recognize civil partnerships for gays. The argument has always been that the word marriage doesn't apply to gays, as it has been used in different context, but civil partnerships grant couples the same rights as those given to those who are married.

I think gays ought to go to court for the correct interpretation, and indeed can seek to have provisions which appear to make same sex relationships illegal be declared unconstitutional. Otherwise they will continue being intimidated by neanderthals like Raila and other religious fundamentalists.

 

[Nanren]

Mimi ningeshauri wakamatwe halafu wakatibiwe akili zao. Mambo yote yanayohusiana na ngono yana uwezekano kuhusishwa na akili. Ndio maana wapo wanaokamata kuku, kupanda ng'ombe, mbwa, mbuzi, nk. Wengine hudiriki kulamba wagonjwa wa akili au kubaka vitoto. Yote hayo ni matatizo ya akili. Hata kuamua kuinamishwa na mwanaume mwenzio au mwanamke kulambwa na mwanamke mwenzio, ni matatizo ya kiakili tu. Watibiwe watu wa namna hii!!!!!!!!

 

[IHOLOMELA]

death penalty for gays

 

[paradox]

Mimi ningeshauri wakamatwe halafu wakatibiwe akili zao. Mambo yote yanayohusiana na ngono yana uwezekano kuhusishwa na akili. Ndio maana wapo wanaokamata kuku, kupanda ng'ombe, mbwa, mbuzi, nk. Wengine hudiriki kulamba wagonjwa wa akili au kubaka vitoto. Yote hayo ni matatizo ya akili. Hata kuamua kuinamishwa na mwanaume mwenzio au mwanamke kulambwa na mwanamke mwenzio, ni matatizo ya kiakili tu. Watibiwe watu wa namna hii!!!!!!!!

I real support him,this behaviour is forbidden even by holy bible.I believe we can survive without practising this behavior,congratulation Mr.Raila for your good sentiment on this bad behaviour!!!

Thank u MR.Prime Minister. Wafundishe na watz jinsi ya kuzungumzia haya mambo maana wamelala sana watu wanateketea.

Homosexuality is unnatural and I oppose it!
Naturally I join RO, though I tend to look on how to help them out than condemn them :redfaces:

death penalty for gays

It's all in good humor guys. . .:dance: :teeth: :bump2: :lol:

 

[Ab-Titchaz]

The new constitution does not ban homosexuality. It only provides that marriage shall only be between one man and one wife (an ill-advised provision because Muslims can marry up to 4 wives and there are traditionalists who shouldn't be denied their right to marry as many wives as they want).

But one thing is also clear, the constitution does not ban civil partnership for same sex couples. The word "marriage" has been used historically to describe unions between a man and a woman, but nowadays some countries do recognize civil partnerships for gays. The argument has always been that the word marriage doesn't apply to gays, as it has been used in different context, but civil partnerships grant couples the same rights as those given to those who are married.

I think gays ought to go to court for the correct interpretation, and indeed can seek to have provisions which appear to make same sex relationships illegal be declared unconstitutional. Otherwise they will continue being intimidated by neanderthals like Raila and other religious fundamentalists.

Mkenyamzalendo,

let me engage you if I may. When you say that the constituion does not ban homosexuality I can argue in the same breathe that it does not support it either. As a matter of fact this is what it says on matters of equality and discrimination:

Equality and freedom from discrimination​

27. (1) Every person is equal before the law and has the right to
equal protection and equal benefit of the law.​

(2) Equality includes the full and equal enjoyment of all rights
and fundamental freedoms.​

(3) Women and men have the right to equal treatment, including
the right to equal opportunities in political, economic, cultural
and social spheres.​

(4) The State shall not discriminate directly or indirectly against
any person on any ground, including race, sex, pregnancy,
marital status, health status, ethnic or social origin, colour,
age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, dress,
language or birth.​

(5) A person shall not discriminate directly or indirectly against
another person on any of the grounds specified or
contemplated in clause (4).​

As you can see gays/lesbians/homosexuals/civil partnerships are not mentioned in that Constitution by any breath or whiff. If anything all reference is being made towards a man and a woman and the equality that should be there between them. Therefore before you start bashing Raila, I believe your own New Constitution is silent over a matter that you want to make us believe is of great national importance.

Raila was simply telling people what they do not wanna hear...that sodomy is illegal in Kenya!

 

[Gsana]

Mr Odinga's statement is fair enough and an average to African total ways of life. Thanks mr PM Odinga!

 

[nomasana]

Assuming you were dealing with your own son/daughter, could your opinion remain the same?

YES!!!!!!!!!! i would tell him/her about my disappointment and resentment, but in the end the child will do what he/she wants and as te father i will respect and support my kids. God will judge them, my job as the dad is to accept and support my children irrigardless of their sexual prefrences

i am not just saying things just for sake of it. i really do believe that what a person does in the privacy of their home is none of anyones business

 

[nomasana]

The constitution that we passed not so long ago protects the rights of all Kenya irregardless of their sexual preference, what one does in the privacy of his or her bedroom shouldn't be a governments issue, we have many pressing issues to deal with and am sure homosexuality is not one of them. RAO has been goofing lately, and if he continues with his uninformed outbursts, he will lose many votes in the 2012 elections, mine included.

PS... Dont get me wrong, I dont support homosexuality, but I find it undemocratic and immature for the prime minister to make such comments, some things are better left unsaid and let the concerned parties deal with them. gays are people too and arresting them wont kill the act, lets be rational.

thank you smatta, you really are smarter!

 

[Fungu la kukosa]

Kwanza kabisa nampongeza Waziri Mkuu kwa maamuzi yake ya busara kupiga marufuku tabia ya ushoga nchini Kenya. God bless you Kenya PM.
Aidha napenda kuwafahamisha ndugu zangu wa Kenya kwamba Ushoga ni kinyume na maadili ya dini zote duniani, na zaidi ya yote ni kinyume na maadili ya Waafrika. Mimi ufahamu wangu kuhusu ushoga nia kwamba" NI USHETANI NA ZAIDI YA YOTE NI WESTERN CULTURE" Kama kuwaiga wazungu na kuudharau UAFRIKA ndiyo maaendeleo, basi ningewashauri wale wanounga mkno tabia hiyo chafu ya ushoga(gayism and lesibianism) kutafuta nchi ya pekeyao na kisha wawaite tena wazungu waje wawatawale maana kwa kuwa tena chini ya wazungu itakuwa ni rahisi kwao kuiga kila aina ya uchafu utakaoletwa na hata kutendwa na hao wazungu wanaowaona ni wastaarabu na kuwathamini zaidi kuliko Mwenezi Mungu na sheria zake.
MUNGU IBARIKI KENYA NA IEPUSHE NA BALAA LA USHOGA, MUNGU WABARIKI WA AFRIKA

Kenya PM orders gays' arrest​

Prime Minister Raila Odinga addresses a rally in Kamukunji, Nairobi on November 28, 2010. ​

By LUCAS BARASA
Posted Sunday, November 28 2010 at 18:55


Prime Minister Raila Odinga on Sunday ordered for the arrest of gay couples.

Addressing a rally at Kamukunji grounds in his Langata Constituency, the PM said their behaviour was unnatural.

“If found the homosexuals should be arrested and taken to relevant authorities,” Mr Odinga said.

The PM thrilled the crowd when he asserted that the recent census showed there were more women than men and there was no need for same sex relationships.

He said it was madness for a man to fall in love with another man while there were plenty of women and added that there was no need for women to engage in lesbianism yet they can bear children.

Mr Odinga’s statement is likely to rub activists the wrong way since they recently went public to campaign against homophobia.

The remarks also come months after Special Programmes Minister Esther Murugi attracted the wrath of Kenyans for calling for recognition and acceptance of gays.

On Sunday, Mr Odinga accused the ‘No’ team of misleading Kenyans during the campaigns that the new constitution recognises same sex relationships.

He said the group opposed to the new constitution was wrong when they implied that that the document would promote abortion.

Mr Odinga said the new Constitution is the most progressive in the world and took issue with Suspended Higher Education Minister William Ruto for going round the country thanking people for voting ‘No’ yet “the constitution passed long time ago.”

The Eldoret North MP was the defacto leader of group opposed to new constitution.

Mr Odinga said the ball is now in leaders and government court to implement the new constitution so that Kenyans could enjoy its benefits.

He said the government is capable of resolving rows that have threatened to delay or hinder the implementation of new constitution.

The PM also refuted the inclusion of Kamukunji as an outlawed group.

“Kamukunji is a lawful organisation. As the Prime Minister of Kenya I have said Kamukunji is is a lawful organisation,” Mr Odinga said.

Nominated MP Millie Odhiambo who concurred with the PM said the law on organised crime must comply with the constitution.

She said the Kamukunji group, whose members contribute Sh20 every Sunday, was free to meet and that police should stop unlawful harassment.

Daily Nation:*- Politics*|Kenya PM orders gays' arrest[/QUOTE]

 

[MkenyaMzalendo]

Mkenyamzalendo,

let me engage you if I may. When you say that the constituion does not ban homosexuality I can argue in the same breathe that it does not support it either. As a matter of fact this is what it says on matters of equality and discrimination:

Raila was simply telling people what they do not wanna hear...that sodomy is illegal in Kenya!

Something can only be illegal if it is expressly excluded by a statute and other sources of law. Therefore, you can't say that simply because the constitution does not say anything about gay unions that it outlaws the practice by being silent about it. As far as I am concerned, there is no law in Kenya that supports eating a meal with one eye closed, and no statute that supports slaughtering a goat with one leg above the ground while facing north, or a law that requires people to keep a bowl containing turkey's entrails in their bathrooms. For as long as those scenarios are not prohibited, anyone is free to eat, slaughter, or maintain his bathroom whichever way he deems fit. Same thing with gay relationships, constitution can be said not to support it, but it doesn't ban the practice either.

Something has to expressly be declared illegal by law for it to be so, you cant make assumptions that the law does or does not ban a particular practice.

Sodomy is illegal, but that is provided for under the old laws all of which need to be consistent with the new constitution which is the supreme law of the land.The penal code, which makes sodomy a criminal offense, may be deemed unconstitutional because it discriminates against people due to their sexual orientation. Article 27 (4) contains race, sex, pregnancy,marital status, health status, ethnic or social origin, colour, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, dress, language or birth. Admittedly, sexual orientation is not among those grounds for discrimination, but there is no reason why a judge shouldn't include it using the principle of ejusdem generis (I am sorry for the legal language but there was no other way I could explain it). The above words are general and are not exclusive, and therefore one can add other words like sexual orientation. Its purely a question of law.

Usage of the word sodomy was common when people thought that a man cannot be raped. But we now know that it's possible to rape a man (in fact that is provided for under the new Sexual Offenses Act) . I think that word has outlived its usefulness and ought to be kicked out of the statute books.

 

[Ikimita]

These days they no longer just keep it to the privacy of their bedrooms but they throw it in our faces to accept their sexual preferences...thats where it becomes sticky!

That's right.
One thing for sure is that our creator is genius. If our creator wanted our sex and sexual orientations to be a public issue, he would have put our sex organs on our foreheads, lol.

 

[Fab]

That's right.
One thing for sure is that our creator is genius. If our creator wanted our sex and sexual orientations to be a public issue, he would have put our sex organs on our foreheads, lol.

haha haaaaaaaaaaaaa u made my day...

 

[Smatta]

Something can only be illegal if it is expressly excluded by a statute and other sources of law. Therefore, you can't say that simply because the constitution does not say anything about gay unions that it outlaws the practice by being silent about it. As far as I am concerned, there is no law in Kenya that supports eating a meal with one eye closed, and no statute that supports slaughtering a goat with one leg above the ground while facing north, or a law that requires people to keep a bowl containing turkey's entrails in their bathrooms. For as long as those scenarios are not prohibited, anyone is free to eat, slaughter, or maintain his bathroom whichever way he deems fit. Same thing with gay relationships, constitution can be said not to support it, but it doesn't ban the practice either.

Something has to expressly be declared illegal by law for it to be so, you cant make assumptions that the law does or does not ban a particular practice.

Sodomy is illegal, but that is provided for under the old laws all of which need to be consistent with the new constitution which is the supreme law of the land.The penal code, which makes sodomy a criminal offense, may be deemed unconstitutional because it discriminates against people due to their sexual orientation. Article 27 (4) contains race, sex, pregnancy,marital status, health status, ethnic or social origin, colour, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, dress, language or birth. Admittedly, sexual orientation is not among those grounds for discrimination, but there is no reason why a judge shouldn't include it using the principle of ejusdem generis (I am sorry for the legal language but there was no other way I could explain it). The above words are general and are not exclusive, and therefore one can add other words like sexual orientation. Its purely a question of law.

Usage of the word sodomy was common when people thought that a man cannot be raped. But we now know that it's possible to rape a man (in fact that is provided for under the new Sexual Offenses Act) . I think that word has outlived its usefulness and ought to be kicked out of the statute books.

Ab Tichaz, I think you have just been lawyered, thanks Mzalendo.

 

[Ab-Titchaz]

Ab Tichaz, I think you have just been lawyered, thanks Mzalendo.

Wewe morio stop this cheerleading sasa.

Mkenyamzalendo is simply saying what I'm saying on the flip side. Dont think the committee of Experts who came up with this draft had not anticipated this problem. They knew it was going to be a touchy issue and thats why they stayed silent on it and if anything letting the old order ran supreme.Therefore just like he says the Constitution does not outlaw gay marriage, I say in the same breath...neither does it condone it. Kwa hivyo shilingi imerudishwa kua mapeni and we still are stuck at the same spot.

If the Penal Code outlaws sodomy, then mchezo kwisha...it is illegal. But at the same token it does not allow gay people from cohabiting together. Thats where my question arises...is it therefore legal? Until that issue is debated in court and synchronized then Sodomy remains illegal even under the new constitution.... Its all about interpretation.

Tuzidi.

 

[bob giza]

Ab Tichaz, I think you have just been lawyered, thanks Mzalendo.

ua hawa ma gays, ueni wote, we never had these non sense b4 in Africa, these days vitoto vidogo vimekuwa vishoga eti haki zetu...to hell with you, nasema to hell and you all deserve to be killed..thats against humanity, thats unnatural, thats crayzie..killing you is far better than you being gays...In Tanzania, the situation is getting off control, more youngsters are now involved in gay activities, na most of them ni kwa tamaa ya pesa, wanaacha kufanya kazi, wanaacha kusoma wanaona kuf""|::irwa ndo short cut..and our leaders are mute..wanaona poa tuu...we should put this point blank and clear..that being gay means death penalty for you..

 

[Ab-Titchaz]

Something can only be illegal if it is expressly excluded by a statute and other sources of law. Therefore, you can't say that simply because the constitution does not say anything about gay unions that it outlaws the practice by being silent about it. As far as I am concerned, there is no law in Kenya that supports eating a meal with one eye closed, and no statute that supports slaughtering a goat with one leg above the ground while facing north, or a law that requires people to keep a bowl containing turkey's entrails in their bathrooms. For as long as those scenarios are not prohibited, anyone is free to eat, slaughter, or maintain his bathroom whichever way he deems fit. Same thing with gay relationships, constitution can be said not to support it, but it doesn't ban the practice either.

Something has to expressly be declared illegal by law for it to be so, you cant make assumptions that the law does or does not ban a particular practice.

Mkenyamzalendo,

Just to clear the air I did not say gay marriage is illegal in Kenya....I jsut said the constitution is silent about it.

 

[MkenyaMzalendo]

Mkenyamzalendo,

Just to clear the air I did not say gay marriage is illegal in Kenya....I jsut said the constitution is silent about it.

Sasa, what are you saying? Of course the new constitution expressly outlaws gay marriage. It provides that marriage is between one man and one woman. It, however does not outlaw civil partnerships. The word "marriage" can only be used to describe certain kind of unions. There is a robust debate in the west on whether gays should be allowed to use the word "marriage" to describe their unions, and those who oppose the move say that marriage is historically between a man and a wife, and that word "marriage" has recently gained religious connotations, esp if you consider that virtually all marriages were conducted in a church and presided over by a priest/Revered. Civil marriages (where couples go to the AG office or Justice of the Peace to marry is actually a recent practice).

I think you meant to say that the constitution does not outlaw the practice of being gay, it only prevents gays from marrying. But maybe they can have relationships. I think it's for the courts to decide the meaning of the constitution.

 

[Ab-Titchaz]

Sasa, what are you saying? Of course the new constitution expressly outlaws gay marriage. It provides that marriage is between one man and one woman. It, however does not outlaw civil partnerships. The word "marriage" can only be used to describe certain kind of unions. There is a robust debate in the west on whether gays should be allowed to use the word "marriage" to describe their unions, and those who oppose the move say that marriage is historically between a man and a wife, and that word "marriage" has recently gained religious connotations, esp if you consider that virtually all marriages were conducted in a church and presided over by a priest/Revered. Civil marriages (where couples go to the AG office or Justice of the Peace to marry is actually a recent practice).

I think you meant to say that the constitution does not outlaw the practice of being gay, it only prevents gays from marrying. But maybe they can have relationships. I think it's for the courts to decide the meaning of the constitution.

Mkenyamzalendo,

In this debate I think it will be prudent to keep the west out of it maana you remember how during the referendum, the church and kina Ruto insisted on foreign ideologies not being sneaked into the Kenyan agenda. This LGBT business is one of them. So for the sake of this debate lets not go there for now.

With the highlighted statement I believe you snatched the words right out of my mouth and thats where the slippery slope arises.

Kisha I don't think the Constitution outlaws gay marriage but simply defines it as a union between a man and a woman, I believe.Chapter 4 says something like this:

Family​

45. (1) The family is the natural and fundamental unit of society and the
necessary basis of social order, and shall enjoy the recognition and
protection of the State.​

(2) Every adult has the right to marry a person of the opposite sex, based on
the free consent of the parties.​

Now just to play devils advocate, what happens if an individual undergoes a sex change and becomes a 'woman'...it she/he given this highlighted privilege above? Personally I dont think they should be prevented to marry if they are of legal age but somebody will argue that the initial gender assignement on the birth certificate is what should be used. What say you in such an instance?

If you catch my drift this far, I'm tryna say that there are many loopholes on that supreme document and some of it is because the CoE did not want to get entagled in a mess they had no gameplan of getting out of. Imagine if that document had contained words like sexual orientation or LGBT..Si the conservative wing of the Jamhuri would have gone up in flames? Kwa hivyo Raila was just playing to his mtaa aducience lakini kina Gaitho and many of his detractors saw it as fodder to chew him out.