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Nyerere's best hotuba.

Discussion in 'Habari na Hoja mchanganyiko' started by Mwiba, Sep 4, 2012.

  1. Mwiba

    Mwiba JF-Expert Member

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    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2016
  2. Kiranga

    Kiranga JF-Expert Member

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    Nakubaliana na yeye karibu sehemu zote.

    Kasoro sehemu ya kuogopa kutafuta habari za dini za watu katika sensa, kwani wasomi watahitaji habari hizi kufanya chunguzi na serikali inaweza kuhitaji habari hizi kuandaa mipango yake inayoathiriwa na dini, kwa mfano habari za uzazi wa mpango.
     
  3. The Boss

    The Boss JF-Expert Member

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    Alikuwa msanii tu na yeye
    Hakuna mtu mwenye akili kama yeye anaeweza kuongoza watu
    kwa miaka yoote asijue eti wamegawanyika kidini namna gani...
    he was no fool....
    Alikuwa anajua exactly sensa ya watu kidini inasemaje...
    hapo ni usanii tu anafanya
     
  4. Kiranga

    Kiranga JF-Expert Member

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    I give Nyerere some slack too, he certainly had a self contradicting benevolence and at least statesmanship in intent unrivaled by any other, partly as an accident of history.

    So I understand he must have been partly Machiavellian by virtue of his office and longevity (unadanganya mpaka unaamini uongo wako mwenyewe type of shyt), but I would also like to think that there is a good argument that he may just have had this genuine belief in what he was saying.

    Why, the concept may even have had some semblance of validity during that time.

    But not now.

    The fact that our country is being threatened by religion based divisions should give the government even more reason to include the religion question in the census, not less.

    Ignoring this question may raise a mountain out of a molehill.
     
  5. U

    Ubungo JF-Expert Member

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    Mwalimu alijua nini kitatokea ndani ya CCM na akawaonya, wamepuuza na sasa wanatafuta mchawi wao. M4C inakuja na majibu sahihi.
     
  6. The Boss

    The Boss JF-Expert Member

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    Kiranga ..sijui nikujibu vipi hili
    Mimi niliwahi kukuta kitabu kinachotoa data za kutosha za kila nchi za Africa
    zamani saana....vitabu hivi mimi nilivikuta 'Tanganyika Library'....
    na vinakupa data pamoja na source
    na kwa upande wa Tz walitoa data pamoja na population na dini zao
    kwa mujibu wa data available za mwaka 1967....na zilikuwa data ambazo ziko varified na serikali
    mfano za sensa zilitoka serikalini na iliandikwa source za idara za serikali
    Point here ni kuwa data za watu kidini zilikuwepo kwa mda mrefu tena sio kwa uficho
    Hiyo ya 1967 ilikuwa na mkono wa wakoloni....
    na zingine zilifuata pia...Sensa ya mwaka 1988 nilikuwa mtoto but swali la dini nakumbuka
    wazazi wangu waliulizwa.....na lilikuwepo so data zipo...

    sasa Nyerere akisema eti hata mawaziri wake hakuwajua dini zao ni usanii tu...
    sisemi alikuwa mdini...naweza sema aliona hizo infos sio za kutangazwa labda ili ku avoid hiki ambacho
    tunakiona sasa....but infos zipo na wanazijua
     
  7. Nyani Ngabu

    Nyani Ngabu Platinum Member

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    I wholeheartedly agree with him.

    I've said it before that we're sitting on a powder keg of religious tension that can explode at any minute.

    I don't see the need to include that religion question in the census. If it has to be, then it should be optional but not required.
     
  8. Nyani Ngabu

    Nyani Ngabu Platinum Member

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    Hmmm...nadhani umemuelewa vibaya.

    Yeye hoja aliyokuwa anaijenga ni kwamba dini ya mtu ni jambo la binafsi na haihusu wengine. Jambo ambalo nakubaliana naye mia kwa mia.

    Dini yako wewe Boss inanihusu nini mimi? Kama wewe unaabudu likinyago mimi inanihusu nini?
     
  9. M

    Mundu JF-Expert Member

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    Swali la dini lilikuwa ni la msingi kwa vigezo vingi tu. Lakini kwa jinsi dodoso za sensa za sasa zilivyotengenezwa na jinsi mgongano wa mitazamo kati ya waumini wa kawaida na wale wenye misimamo mikali ulivyokuwa na unavyoendelea kukua katika nchi yetu, suala hili la dini lingeleta data zenye upotofu mwingi sana.

    Mathalani, mtu unamwuliza mmelala wangapi usiku wa kuamkia tarehe 26th Agosti; naye ni mdini, angeweza kusema uongo tu. '....aaaaah tulilala kumi na tano hapa....' wakati walilala watu wanne ama watano!
     
  10. Nyani Ngabu

    Nyani Ngabu Platinum Member

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    Kama dini ni swali la msingi, kabila je?
     
  11. The Boss

    The Boss JF-Expert Member

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    Nyerere namuelewa vizuri mno
    ukitaka hebu tafuta kwanza hotuba yake ya kwanza bungeni baada ya uhuru

    alisema kuwa kuna migawanyo ya kidini kielimu iliosababishwa na wakoloni
    serikali yake itafanya kazi kuirekebisha

    sasa miaka miingi baadae mwandishi wa Uingereza akasema Nyerere anawapendelea Wakatoliki...
    mind you sio mimi ninaesema haya....ni mwandishi wa Uingereza....
    na Nyerere jibu lake lilikuwa hilo kuwa hajui hata dini za mawaziri wake...

    Point hapa ni kuwa kama alisema wakoloni walisababisha mgawanyo kidini...
    alijuaje? unarekebishaje? unajuaje kuwa unachokifanya kinarekebishika?
    unahitaji source sio?takwimu sio?
    sasa utasemaje hujui?
     
  12. Kiranga

    Kiranga JF-Expert Member

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    The folly of the assertion that including the religion question will somehow solve our division issues - or at least maintain the stalemate status quo- would have been laughable had it been not so serious.

    Contrary to the purported benevolent totalitarian approach, suppressing this info may actually accelerate the explosion due to validating some conspiracy theories.

    The best way to expose a lie is not to deny it information (information wants to be free).

    The majority of the Tanzanian people do not want religious divisions, let's face it, we have intermarried too much for that to happen, and most of us are still african traditionalists at heart, even the Mzee wa kanisas and a good number of shehes.

    So why not give the few individuals (religious nuts) the rope they need to hang themselves with (census figures showing religion based divisions)? And see what are they going to do with these figures?

    What are they going to do? Ask for a cabinet that is apportioned by religion based quotas? Ask for University seat apportions by religion based quotas? then the government will really prove it's case and get all the justification it needs to put it's foot on them with full state powers and the backing of the majority of Tanzanians.

    Until then, what the government is doing now is akin to prohibiting people to drive simply because there is a risk of a few accidents that comes inevitably with driving.

    That's not how you run a country.
     
  13. Nyani Ngabu

    Nyani Ngabu Platinum Member

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    Ambapo sikubaliani naye ni pale aliposema "kiongozi safi hawezi kutoka nje ya CCM".

    Bado naamini kuna Watanzania wengi tu ambao ni wasafi na wenye sifa za uongozi ambao hawapo CCM.
     
  14. Nyani Ngabu

    Nyani Ngabu Platinum Member

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    Very simple, you rectify it by being religion blind!
     
  15. M

    Mundu JF-Expert Member

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    Kama kungekuwa na mpango wa Serikali kushughulikia matambiko ya watu, nalo lingekuwa ni swali la msingi!
     
  16. Nyani Ngabu

    Nyani Ngabu Platinum Member

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    So you think asking that question would somehow placate the religious crazies?
     
  17. Kiranga

    Kiranga JF-Expert Member

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    It's not a question of placating them.

    It's more about putting truth to light and seeing what will they do.

    If their interests are genuine, they will use the data to build mosques/ hospitals (helping the government in the hospital bit, which is why it is sheer folly to think that these figures do not figure into public policy in a way or another) and the entire brouhaha will end there.

    If they have a more malicious intent, example to use this info for political ends, insinuating a religion based split in the fabric of our nation, then the government should be able to deal with them after there is eveidence that this indeed happenned.

    After all we still do uphold "innocent until proven guilty" right?

    How could we as a nation declare that this data is going to be used maliciously even before the data is obtained?

    Is denying the collection of this data to all Tanzanians simply because a few nuts will misuse it fair to academicians who want to conduct credible researches supported by credible, authoritative and neutral sources such as the government census ?
     
  18. Nyani Ngabu

    Nyani Ngabu Platinum Member

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    Since they distrust the government they probably won't accept any figures collected by it anyway.

    And by giving them what they want (which is probably to advance their agenda) would be a symbolic victory of sorts.

    So why do that?
     
  19. The Boss

    The Boss JF-Expert Member

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    Sasa si ndo Nyerere anacho claim kukifanya?
    mbona malalamiko yamezidi now?
    si yangeisha basi?
     
  20. A

    August JF-Expert Member

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    hili unaweza lirekebisha kwa njia nyingi, moja ni kutoa elimu ya uzazi wa majira, elimu ya uchumi, sheria mfano kwa wenzetu huwezi kulala na mkeo mpaka amekubali ama sivyo inachukuliwa kama ni kubaka, hali ngumu ya maisha inaweza pia kukurekebisha wewe mwenyewe na kuona hakuna haja ya kuwa na watoto wengi, na zaidi ya hapo hili la kuzaliana halifuati, dini bali eneo husika, na mambo mengineyo kama kukosekana kwa umeme nk. unaweza kukuta waha, wakisha pata ulabu wao basi hasira kwa mama ,matokeo yake ni watoto, wengi lakini hapo hapo kuna vifo vya hao watoto kutokana na kukosekana kwa mambo ya afya, lishe nk. vivohivyo kwa wasukuma, nk nk , hivyo vikra yako kwamba watu wengi wa pwanindio wana watoto wengi ni potofu? au wa dini fulani kwa sababu hawafuati uzazi wa majira sivyo. kwanza mtu akisha ingia kwenye uzinifu basi hapo hakuna dini.
     
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