Muungano wa Tanganyika na Zanzibar: Una faida gani na kwa manufaa ya nani?

Mdondoaji,

..OAU charter inatambua mipaka iliyoachwa na wakoloni. hilo ni moja.

..pia hapo Zanzibar inasemekana alikuwepo Mreno kabla ya Muarabu. sasa ina maana Mreno aje adai Zanzibar?

..pia ili hiyo move ifanikiwe, wananchi wa ukanda wa pwani ya Tanganyika,Kenya,Msumbiji,Somalia, inabidi waanzishe harakati za kumtambua mtawala wao wa zamani Sultani wa Zanzibar/Oman.

..vilevile it has to be established kwamba Sultani aliunda utawala na namna fulani, na siyo trading sphere au influences, kama inavyosomeka ktk literature nyingi.

..zaidi, itabidi utafutwe uhalali wa umiliki wa Sultani wa eneo la Pwani ya Afrika Mashariki. je, nani alimpa Sultani mamlaka ya utawala wa eneo hilo?

..mwisho, na hili ndilo muhimu kuliko yote, ni kama it is feasible kuanza kucheza na mipaka ya Afrika kwa wakati huu. kumbuka hapa unacheza na mipaka ya Tanganyika,Kenya,Msumbiji,na Somalia.
 
JokaKuu,

Joka kuu,

Hapa tu naweza kukuunga mkono na Even UN charter zinasema hivyo lakini kuna kipengele kinasema kuwa hizo land ziwe zimekuwa acquired legally or at a consesus to both parties. Ndio maana mpaka leo Israel inapata tabu kwani kuna vipengele vingi inakwama. Sasa nikuulize je hilo eneo wakoloni walilichukua legally au illegally?

The rest mkuu ni wishful thinking in legal terms they are irrelevant tu mkuu.
 
hakuna cha makazi ya kudumu, wao wakitaka kuondoka na warudi tu kwao, je kuna wabara wangapi huko zenji?
mbona huwezi kusikia hata siku moja mtanganyika akiwasema vibaya hao wazenji walio bara?
kwa sasa wapo karibu kila mkoa, na wanaishi kwa amani tu sijui hawa watu wanarho gani ya ukwanini,chuki na ubinafisi usiokuwa na kichwa wala miguu JokaKuu,
 
Mdondoaji,

..kwanza tuna-assume kwamba Sultani hakuuza hili eneo kwa Wajerumani au Waingereza. It is still up in the air if that is true or not.

..umeleta article inayosomeka kwamba Sultani alikataa protectorate status kutoka kwa Wajerumani, lakini baadaye akakubali status hiyo toka kwa Waingereza. kwa msingi huo inawezekana kulikuwa na negotiations za namna fulani kati ya Sultani,Mjerumani,na Muingereza.

..sasa kuonyesha kwamba Sultani aliporwa eneo la Tanganyika labda ungetusaidia kwa kuleta article inayoonyesha kwamba aliwahi kulidai eneo hilo toka kwa Wajerumani kwa namna yoyote ile.

..sehemu nyingine tunayoweza kupata ukweli ni mkataba wa Tanganyika kuwa trust territory[ we were not a protectorate or colony] chini Muingereza baada ya Mjerumani kushindwa vita kuu ya kwanza. hiyo inaweza kutoa ufafanuzi kuhusu nani alikuwa mtawala "halali" wa eneo hili.

..eneo ambalo nadhani unaweza kuwa na hoja labda ni madai kuhusu bandari ya Mombasa. mkataba huo ulisainiwa karibu na uhuru wa Kenya. sijui terms za mkataba huo zilikuwa ni nini.
 
..hapa inaelekea money was exchanged between Sayyid Khalifa na Wajerumani.

..je, Sultani aliuza au alikodisha pwani ya Tanganyika, hiyo nawachieni muamue.
 
JokaKuu,

Joka Kuu,

Nadhani umeisoma lakini hukuelewa kilichoandikwa narudia kunukuu:-

In 1873 the British Navy compelled Sultan BARGASH to abolish slave trade).
The British have long played a role as advisers to the Sultan of Zanzibar. In 1877, Sultan Bargash, in communication with the Germans, refused a British protectorate; in 1880, Germany's chancellor Bismarck rejected a request by the Sultan of Zanzibar for a German protectorate. In 1886, Britain and Germany, both interested in the acquisition of colonies, agreed on partitioning the mainland territories of the Sultanate, ostensibly to suppress the slave trade the Sultan had nominally abolished and was unable to suppress, technically while respecting the Sultan's sovereignty. Britain would receive British East Africa (Kenya), while Germany would receive German East Africa (Tanzania).
Zanzibar, i.e. the islands of Zanzibar and Pemba, remained independent until 1890.


Ningelikushauri soma between the lines. Sultani alimwambia hakutaka Waingereza wawe chini ya protectorate yake kwani walikuwa hawaivi, na inaelekea akamuomba Mjerumani ambaye naye alikataa (Haijulikani sababu). Ikisha wajerumani na waingereza wakaa chini na kugawana keki ya mainland hasa maeneo ya Sultani wa Zanzibar pasipo kumshirikisha mwenye mali. Bado hujaelewa?
 
EEhe! hapa ndipo tunapotaka, hebu tusaidie tutajuta na nini, please tusaidie

Mkuu kamuulize Uganda, Zambia, Rwanda and Burundi wanapata hasara kiasi gani kuwa a landlocked country? Utajua kwanini nasema tutajuta.
 
..hapa inaelekea money was exchanged btn Sayyid Khalifa na Wajerumani.

..je, Sultani aliuza au alikodisha pwani ya Tanganyika, hiyo nawachieni muamue.

Mkuu,

Kwanza aliyekuwa madarakani wakati wanagawana keki ya Tanganyika alikuwa Sultan Baragrash. Seyyid Khalifa alikuwa hayupo yeye alifuatia baada ya Baragash na alitawala zanzibar kuanzia 1870- 1888. Makubaliano ya hao wakuu wawili Germany na Britain against 10 Km strip yalikuwa 1886 kama maneno haya mengine yanavyosema:-

The British-German agreement of 29 October 1886 acknowledged the Sultan's rule over a 10-mile-strip along the coast from Portuguese Mozambique up to the Tana River and some towns on the Somali coast. This agreement, however, was only short-lived as it cut the German areas of influence off the sea.
 
Joka Kuu,

888 - 1890 H.H. Sultan Sayyid Khalifa I bin Said, Sultan of Zanzibar and its dependencies, GCMG (13.6.1888). b. at the Bait al-Mtoni, Unguja, Zanzibar, 1852, thirteenth son of H.H. Sayyid Sa'id bin Sultan bin Imam Ahmad, Sultan of Muscat, Oman and Zanzibar, by an Ethiopian suri, educ. privately. His elder half-brother, Sayyid Barghash placed him in prison, soon after he succeeded to the throne in 1870. Released from confinement in 1873. Proclaimed on the death of his brother as Sultan of Zanzibar and its dependencies, 26th March 1888. Installed at the Bait al-Ajaib, Stone Town, Unguja, Zanzibar, 27th March 1888.

He entered into a treaty with the Deutsch Ostafrika Gesellschaft granting them the right to collect customs duties and taxes along the coast of Africa in 1888. Granted and indemnity of £ 200,000 sterling in exchange for recognising German sovereignty over Tanganyika, and £11,000 sterling p.a. from the East Africa Company in exchange for their control over Mombasa and the northern portions of his dominions on the coastal strip. Sovereign of the Order of the Brilliant Star of Zanzibar (Wisam al-Kawkab al-Durri al-Zanzibari). He d. at Marhubi Palace, Unguja, Zanzibar, 13th February 1890 (bur. Makusurani Cemetery), having had issue, an only surviving son:

1) Sayyid Muhammad bin Khalifa Al-Said. b. at Unguja, Zanzibar, 18xx. He d. there, 1906.

Mkuu,

Usiniabishe kwanza hapa hakuna evidence kuwa jamaa aliwauzia but rather jamaa waliwapa ruhusa ya kusimamia ukusanywaji wa kodi na ushuru kutoka bandari. Nipatie kithibitisho kuonyeshwa Sultani wa zanzibar amewauzia wajerumani ardhi.

Kwa ufupi definition of an indemnity :

Indemnity is often used as a synonym for compensation or reparation.


As a legal concept, it has a more specific meaning, namely, to compensate another party to a contract for any loss that such other party may suffer during the performance of the contract.

Hakumaanishi kwamba nimekuuzia eneo kwa maana nyengine unanilipa fidia mkuu eneo anabakia nalo mwenyewe.

Tupatie a sale agreement baina ya Sultan Khalifa na Wajerumani au Waingereza?
 
Mkuu kamuulize Uganda, Zambia, Rwanda and Burundi wanapata hasara kiasi gani kuwa a landlocked country??? Utajua kwanini nasema tutajuta.

Tangayika is not landlocked, please nifungue macho, tutajuta na nini? tafadhali nisadie maana hili swali linanisumbua sana. pliiz
 
Mimi ningependa wa muungano, lakini muungano usio na unafiki, kelele na mayowe yasiyo na tija.
Kwasababu mnasisitiza busara basi ni vema tukaeleweshana ili sote tujue pro and cons. Hakuna sababu ya kufumbiana, mada ipo wazi.

Kelele za Zanzibar zinakera sana, kila siku tunaonewa tunaonewa, wakoloni hao, majangili n.k. Sasa umebebwa mgongoni bado unarusha mateke na matusi, ah basi teremeka utembee mwenyewe.

Swali langu ni kuwa, Tanganyika inapoteza nini muungano ukivunjika? Mimi nipo tayari kueleza Zanzibar inapoteza nini. Sasa nawaomba kwanza niambieni Tanganyika ina lose nini.

Tusipotoshe mada eti Tanganyiaka ni Landlocked!!! who said that!
 
kweleakwelea,

Dr. Salim Ahmed Salim alipingwa munda na Marehemu Thabiti Kombo, na wajumbe wengine wa Kamati Kuu ya CCM ambao walimshawshi a Mwinyi kukubali kuwa mgombea uraisi licha ya kuwa Mwalimu Nyerere na Rashid Mfaume Kawawa walikuwa wanamtaka Salim.

Vita dhidi ya Salim ilianza mwaka 1985 na ndiyo maana mwaka 1986 aliondolewa nchini na kuamuriwa kugombea Ukatibu Mkuu wa OAU ili kumwacha Mwinyi bila tishio. Aliyetengeneza mpango huo ni Mkapa ambaye alimuona Salim kama tishio kubwa kwake. Wale waliokuwa Wizara ya Mambo ya Nje wanaweza kuthibitisha haya lakini niliyaandika mwaka 1995 katika gazeti za Shaba nikipinga kauli ya Nyerere kuwa Mkapa alikuwa mtu safi.
 
Mdondoaji,

Mdondoaji usitumie Uzenji wako kuwapotosha wana JF, maana utakuwa sawa na wale wanaokaa maskani na kudai muungano ufe because wadada wa Kitanganyika wanavaa suruali katika mitaa ya Zanzibar but wataliano waenda utupu-hawaonekani! Hata ndoa inapovunjika kila mmoja atajuta hapo baadaye but kwa hili la muungano surely Zanzibar ita-suffer kidogo, ikiwa pamoja na Watanganyika kuanza kuwanyoshea vidole Wazenji walioko bara ambalo litaharibu mfumo wa biashara zao, pili money circulation katika nchi ya Zanzibar inategemea transfer payments za Wazenji walioko nje ya Zanzibar ikiwa pamoja return of investments za Wazenj zilizoko bara,employments bara n.k,

Hii hadith coast strip nadhani haina maana kuijadili kwa watu wazima kama cc maana hata zile instruments republic of zanzibar zilizokuwa deposited kule UN 1963 hazijumuishi eneo hilo so there z no basis ktk hilo. Na Mombasa kweli iliuzwa ktk mkataba ulisimamiwa baina ya WM Shamte(k.n.y Sultan) na Mzee Kenyata i think october 1963 {usiniulize vipi october 1963 shamte ashakuwa WM wa republic of Zanzibar kwa uhuru wa Desemba 63} na miongoni mwa yaliyomo katika agreenment hiyo ni Serikali ya Kenya kuwapa waislam wa Mombasa full freedom ya kuabudu na kuwapa haki ya kusoma pamoja Kiarab kifundishwe katika shule za mombasa pia wasinyanyaswe kwa namna yoyote ile.

(I do no kama yantekelezwa hadi sasa). Kama ulikuwepo znz miaka 70's 80's even 90's story hii ilikuwa maarufu baina ya afro shiraz na hizb/ ccm na cuf-wakitaniana "babu yenu(sultan) kauza kisiwa cha mombasa na fedha hazikuingiya ktk govt cofer, je zimeenda wapi"? Mdondoaji ucwe na ule ushabiki ucio na tija,bali kwa kutumia empirical evidence ambao kwa issue za znz-mombasa-azania,nimebahtika kuzipata kutoka wel reliable sources na wala sio kulala ktk cooked literature!
 
Kwanza yeye Sultani ni nani aliyempa Zanzibar Aitawale?. yeye ni mkoloni tu kama wakoloni wengine.
Ukoloni mkongwe Ushaondoka na hatuwezi kukubali urudi tena.

Sasa nimeanza kuelewa Umuhimu wa Mapinduzi ya Zanzibar, hawa Wapemba laiti wangeliachiwa waendelee na Usultani wao wangewatesa sana wenzao Waunguja.

Kutokana na Chokochoko hizi za Wapemba, kumbe ni bora hata hicho chama chao cha wapemba kikanyimwa kuendesha Zanzibar, mawazo yao ni umimi umimi tu, ubinafsi umewajaa.
Ni ubinafsi na tamaa tu, Chao-Chetu, Chetu-Chetu.

Na wasituletee mambo ya 10km-strip, sijui kitu gani. Hivi hawa wana ujasiri wa kusimama na kuidai Dar-es-salaam eti ni ya Sultani!.
Hawa watu mawazo yao ni ya ajabu kabisa.
 
Rugemeleza/ Chamajani Big Up bros, I cant thank you more.
To add more insult on the bleeding wound, Sosshi and Mdoandoaji have come up with evidence to deny Zanzibar Revolution. Basically, they say, Okello was sent by Christian to stop the Islam movement in Zanzibar. They further said, the overthrown of Sultan was a well orchestrated move by the western. I should admit though, the duo presented articles from different sources to substantiate their allegations, something good in any intellectual discourse. Unfortunate the evidence was biased and did not take an account that the authors are human being perhaps with their own interest.

It is a custom and tradition to celebrate Mapinduzi on 12 January since 1964. The architects of Mapinduzi some are still alive and active socially and politically, Mzee Mwinyi, Jumbe, Natepe etc few to mention. There is no doubt these old guards are committed Moslems as we have witness times and again. In this context our friends are suggesting that the 12 members of revolution council are traitors. The question is, should we celebrate Mapinduzi or not! Pandemonium 1.

Mdondoaji and Sosshi are charging with allegation that, Zanzibar could be better outside the Union Government. They may have a point so as to speak, unfortunate they fail short to answer the basic question Zanzibarian never want to answer , ' What Tanganyika is going to lose if the Union collapse today''! Pandemonium 2.

We all have an obligation to be candid when discussing issues touching our society. Babel and pandemonium is not an answer iota. If European are coming together for the common purpose we need to find a formula to excel the already milestone we have made.

The onus to nurture or kill the union remains to Zanzibar as the big loser. Whether the referendum or new constitution in the offing will answer the question, we have to wait and see
 
Gamba la Nyoka,

Logically, kama muungano unavunjwa basi nchi hizi mbili Tanganyika na Zanzibar zitafuata mipaka yao iliyokuwepo kabla ya Muungano, mipaka ambayo ndiyo ilikubalika na jumuiya ya kimataifa. Hilo eneo la 10km litakuwa ndani ya Tanganyika.

It is just a "false dream and wishful thinking" kufikiria kuwa eti tukivunja muungano basi Zanzibar na sultan wao watakuja kuzichukua hizo km10. Well..., dreaming is ok. A man has to have some few dreams even if they'll never become real.
 
Tangayika is not landlocked, please nifungue macho, tutajuta na nini? tafadhali nisadie maana hili swali linanisumbua sana. pliiz
Nguruvi sasa hivi Tanganyika sio landlocked country kwani kuna pwani na ukanda wote lakini technically in legal terms kama Zanzibar ikidai eneo lake Tanganyika itakuwa landlocked country kama ramani hii hapa chini inavyoonyesha:-

Unimaps.com - Tanganyika & Zanzibar, 1886

Ukiangalia kwa vizuri utaona Tanzania na Kenya mpaka Malindi na Lamu watapoteza haki ya ufukweni pamoja ukanda wa bahari kwani mali ya Zanzibar. Hii ndio sababu iliyowafanya waingereza na wajerumani kumnyang'anya ardhi kwani kama wangeliacha ingeliwabidi walipie ushuru wa mizigo yao mpakani wa ukanda wa pwani.

Vilevile bandari zote Mombasa, Tanga, Dar-es-Salaam na Kilwa watabidi walipie gharama. Sasa assume wazanzibar wakidai ardhi yao Bandari za Tanganyika ziko wapi, Dar-es-Salaam iko wapi?, Tanga iko wapi? Mafuta ya Tanganyika yapo wapi? Natural gas Tanganyika inayojivunia iko wapi?

Ndio utakapoona kuwa Tutajuta wakuu, This is why viongozi wa Serikali hawatakaa wakubali kamwe muungano uvunjike maana zikianza legal lawsuits itakuwa kivumbi kizito.
 
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