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Marx was right

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Historia' started by Game Theory, Nov 20, 2008.

  1. G

    Game Theory JF-Expert Member

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss
     
  2. K

    Koba JF-Expert Member

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    ...then,now & forever,karl Marx was wrong and is still wrong,kinachoendelea sasa is just a natural circle of markets and corruptions lakini capitalism is the way na ndio mfumo ambao umeleta maendeleo makubwa sana katika history ya binadamu na ukiangalia vizuri sio kwenye uchumi tuu hata freedom to some extent inaendana na capitalism,one thing ninachokubaliana na Marx is his view in religion!
     
  3. J

    Jasusi JF-Expert Member

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    Koba,
    Katika freedom hatukubaliani kabisa. Freedom in capitalism ni kitu kilicholazimishwa na proletariats. Na kusingekuwepo matumizi ya mabavu capitalism isingefika hapa ilipofikia. Rudia kusoma tena historia yake. Freedom was anathema to capitalism. Leo tunaangalia tu matunda yake lakini historia yake inanuka.
     
  4. K

    Kleptomaniacs Member

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    Umeleta maendeleo at the expense of who? hilo nalo hutaki kuliangalia?capitalism and freedom? wewe kweli uko nje ya msitari freedom siku zote imepatikana kupitia mapambano ya wafanyakazi na bila ya mabavu hamna cha kapitalizimu. Zahama za ubepari sio jambo gani ila suluhisho lake siku zote lazima kuwakamua kundi fulani la watu na lazima baadhi ya maeneo yatolewe kafara huo ndio msingi wa kapitalism siku zote.
     
  5. K

    Koba JF-Expert Member

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    Nov 21, 2008
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    .....Karl max ukiangalia vizuri theory zake nyingi sio practical,ni kama Nyerere tuu na ujamaa wake wa kufikirika na maduka ya kaya,capitalism sio kwamba haina some flaws lakini is much better than huo ujamaa wa Marx,wengi humu practically mmeishi nyumbani enzi za ujamaa na western countries,lakini nina uhakika hamtaki kusikia yale maisha ya maduka ya kaya...mnatetea theory za marx ambazo ndizo hizo zimewafanya wengi humu kukimbia nyumbani kuja kutafuta maisha unyamwezini,mkiongelea capitalism msiongelee kenya maana pale tatizo ni rushwa na hakuna demokrasi,angalia states ndio utajua uzuri wa capitalism.
     
  6. H

    Hofstede JF-Expert Member

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    You are right man, hata ukiangalia Rule of pareto Optimality katika "Game Theory" utaprove kuwa capitalist is worse for weakest and best for strongest. It is like law of the jungle " Struggle for existence but survival for the fittest"

    Game Theory[/COLOR] inasema hivi "An outcome of a game is Pareto optimal if there is no other outcome that makes every player at least as well off and at least one player strictly better off ".

    That is, a Pareto Optimal outcome cannot be improved upon without hurting at least one player.
     
  7. H

    Hofstede JF-Expert Member

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    You are right man, hata ukiangalia Rule of pareto Optimality katika "Game Theory" utaprove kuwa capitalist is worse for weakests and best for strongests. It is like law of the jungle " Struggle for existence but survival for the fittest"

    Game Theory inasema hivi "An outcome of a game is Pareto optimal if there is no other outcome that makes every player at least as well off and at least one player strictly better off ".

    That is, a Pareto Optimal outcome cannot be improved upon without hurting at least one player.
    Sasa maendeleo unayoyaona katika nchi za kibeberu ni matokea ya kuzinyonya na kuzidumaza nchi nyingine na bara la africa ni mojawapo wa outcome of Game Theory.

    Resources ziko constant mtu asikudanganye kuwa unaweza kucraete new resorces kinachofanyika ni kuzihamisha kutoka sehemu moja(inaachwa masikini) na kuzirundika sehemu nyingine (inakuwa tajiri).
     
  8. K

    Koba JF-Expert Member

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    ...nyie acheni mawazo eti maendeleo ya western countries ni matokeo ya kuzinyonya nchi maskini za Africa,watu mnaibiana kwenye EPA,Richmond,IPTL,Rites then leo mnasingizia nchi nyingine...acheni mizaha humu!
     
  9. M

    Mkandara Verified User

    #9
    Nov 21, 2008
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    Koba,
    Mkuu mimi nipo nchi ya Kisoshalist na nimekimbia Bongo Mwinyi alipoingia madaraka....Hata huyo McCain katumia mfano wa hapa kuonyesha ubaya wa Usoshalist ktk maswala ya Education na Health care lakini mkuu sisi tunadunda tunashangaa tu wanayoyasema wakati madawa mengi ya maradhi sugu (affordable) yanatoka toka huku..
    Kifupi mchanganyiko wa mazuri ya Ujamaa na yale ya Ubepari ndio rojo la kuzungumzia kwani Ujamaa una deal na WATU (human development) ktk siasa za Uchumi na Ubepari una deal na GDP ktk siasa hizo hizo za Uchumi...Yote mawili yanawezekana na ukitazama nchi zilizofanikiwa nyingi zimechanganya....Nordic Countries na Canada..
    Na hata ktk hali hii mbaya ya Uchumi unajua nchi hizo bado kabisa zimesimama kiuchumi...Canada wame report ongezeko la revenue ktk robo ya mwaka huu wakati nchi nyingine ndio mshike mshike hawajua wamwokoe nani..Nyumba bado bei haijashuka kutokana na regulation, tena basi ukiambiwa bei ya nyumba huku unaweza nunua tatu Marekani zenye mjengo sawa kabisa.
     
  10. Ether

    Ether Senior Member

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    mazee fyi dili za EPA, Richmond, IPTL, Radar etc were all approved and executed per WB, IMF, EU input. lazima hizi dili zote western world alijua ni dili za wizi as they make money out of it too.
     
  11. K

    Koba JF-Expert Member

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    Uh ...can someone explain what ether's talking about?
     
  12. Madela Wa- Madilu

    Madela Wa- Madilu JF-Expert Member

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    Nov 21, 2008
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    Kama Capitalism ni nzuri, kwa nini serikali ya Marekani imeamua kubail baadhi ya mashirika ya fedha na kuyaacha mengine yafe?

    Kitendo chao cha kubail kampuni ni ujamaa halisi.

    Kitendo chao cha kuacha baadhi ya kampuni zife kifo cha asili ni ubepari halisi.

    Ubepari na ujama ni mzuri tu pale wewe uongeaye ukiwa madarakani na unafaidika vilivyo.

    Ubepari duniani kote umejengwa kwa mtutu wa bunduki kuweka watu utumwani,kufutilia kwa kuua mamilioni ya watu na kung'oa kabisa tamaduni na uwezo wa jamii fulani za watu kama Aborigins wa Australia na Red indian wa hapa Marekani.
    Kunyang'anya mali za watu kwa nguvu, kunyang'anya rasilimali kubwa kuliko zote duniani ARDHI kwa Silaha kali duniani Ubaguzi wa rangi Dini kabila hata koo.
    Kuamua bila sababu za msingi katika mizania zote kwamba nani awe na nini na nani asiwe na nini.
    Upotoshaji wa makusudi. Uchochezi miongoni mwa jamii zilizo nyuma na zinazo baguliwa duniani ili ziendelee katika mapigano ya wenyewe kwa wenyewe huku wao wakichukua mali zote za asili kama Madini ya thamani na vito. Ubepari una unyama ndani yake.

    Ujamaa nao unahusika na kitu kinaitwa forced labor na mauaji makubwa ya kiharaiki huko Urusi China Ugoslavia Poland na Cuba. Huku viongozi wa wajiitao wajamaa wakilimbikiza mamilioni ya Dola huko Uswis. Inasadikiwa fidel Castro ana $300,000,000.00 huko Uswis huyo ni mjamaa kweli??
    Ujamaa unazarisha Masultani, watu ambao kila siku wanahisi mawazo yao ni sahihi hata kama mawazo yao ni uharo mtu.
    Viongozi wote katika nchi zijiitazo wajamaa kamwe hawavumilii kukosolewa. Kwao kukosolewa hakuna tofauti na kushika nyeti zao.

    Mchanganyiko wa ujamaa na ubepari katika umiriki wa mali na ustawi wa jamii ndiyo siasa sahihi.
    MaCongress na MaSenate wa hapa Marekani wana Health Insurance ya Government ambayo gharama yake inabebwa na kila mtu Marekani.
    Wabunge wetu huko Tanzania na Vingunge wakiugua Mafua na hata Ukimwi wanakimbizwa nje kwa gharama ya kila Mtanzania. Mzee Haggai wa kule Mnyusi Tanga akiugua anaambiwa ajigharamie.
    Uwezo wa kutumia cha wote uko mikononi mwa viongozi tu wawe wajamaa au mabepari and that is totally wrong.
     
  13. Bongolander

    Bongolander JF-Expert Member

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    Kwanini tuendelee kuwalaumu wengine kwa ujinga wetu? Kwani wao walitulazimisha kusign hizo deal? WB walikuwa wa kwanza kuipigia kelele IPTL, sisi tulikuwa kimya, nani wa kumlaumu hapo.
     
  14. Bongolander

    Bongolander JF-Expert Member

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    He is trying to blame someone for our mistakes, blunders and graft. He is trying lie to himself.
     
  15. cabhatica

    cabhatica JF-Expert Member

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    mie napita tu
     
  16. Iron Lady

    Iron Lady JF-Expert Member

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    idea za marx mimi nazikubali endapo zitapata msimamiaji wa kweli.
    watu wanasema hawataki kusikia maduka ya ujamaa hivi umeshafikiri kuwa kama yangekuwa mwengi ya kutosha je ungelalamika kitu? yalikuwa na shida kwa sababu uzalishaji ulikuwa mdogo.
    ubepari ni mbaya na unawaumiza wengi sana kupita usoshalisti
     
  17. Capt Tamar

    Capt Tamar JF-Expert Member

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    Ikiwa tu unazungumzia ujamaa kwa ukamilifu wake,chetu kiwe chetu kweli,athari (mbaya ama nzuri)za ujamaa haziishii kwenye maduka ya kaya tu,bali pia kuna effects nyingi(direct or indirect)kwenye mindset,pale dereva wa ujamaa anapokuwa na hali bora kuliko wengine ndipo siku zote panapozaliwa ujamaa wa kibepari,ujamaa mara zote umekuwa mtamu kwa wasimamiaji tu,huku the rest wakisubiri tamko litakalofuata baada ya hili,ujamaa dizaini ya jkn wa don't talk just listen,ndio unaowafanya wengi kukimbilia upande wa ukuu wa ujamaa,na kama itamlazimu kuwa na vigezo fulani,basi hana jinsi zaidi ya kuwa bepari mkuu wa ujamaa,ndipo kina mkapa wanapozaliwa na kukulia.
     
  18. R

    Ronal Reagan JF-Expert Member

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    Take a huge hug Koba! You nailed as it should. Very rarery do I concur with many fellow citizens when it comes to ujamaa.

    Hapo kwenye religion, he also proved he's a flawed genius.

    Marx was guilt of same crime which he annihilated others for. He subtly bought simple minded masses into his own form of opium i.e. Ujamaa. He propagted (idolized) it to similarly the same way to the Catholics, Budhas, Muslims et al do with their sacred writings.

    From academic view stand people can be enticed to discuss his fractured hypothesis. But from real life it's different altogether, something to avoid. Folks it's pretty easy to make the mockery about fire so long you're away from the furnance. I've been to some few communist states and I can testify (AS THEIR CITIZENS DO) it's closer to hell!

    "....Then, now & forever, Karl Marx was wrong and is still wrong...." Koba of JF
     
  19. 1701

    1701 JF-Expert Member

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    kosa nadhani niku-apply theories zake bila modification,ujamaa ni mzuri tena sana,tatzo ulkuwa hautambui juhudi binafsi na ubunifu binafsi,hapo ndo ubepari unaposhinda,binadamu hatuwezi kuwa sawa,huyu halali ili kuongeza kipato huyu ata kujiangaisha 4 2hours,i believe leo ujamaa ukrud utafanikiwa maana wachumi tayari wana tools za kutosha ku-analyse before taking an action,game theory hasa kwa kazi ya huyu pareto,wamewakumbuka masikini ila bila kuwaumiza matajiri(si matajiri wakwepa kopi na wala na watoa rushwa)
     
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