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Marekani Yaichokoza Urusi

Discussion in 'International Forum' started by Junius, Jul 23, 2009.

  1. Junius

    Junius JF-Expert Member

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    Rais wa Georgia Mikhail Saakashvili anatazamiwa kuiomba Marekani msaada wa silaha na wa kijeshi.

    Urusi imeelezea kwamba hali ya nchi jirani ya Georgia kufanya jitihada katika kujihami ni jambo ambalo linatia wasiwasi, na kwamba itafanya juhudi zake katika kukatiza mipango hiyo.

    Mwandishi wa BBC mjini Moscow anaelezea kwamba hali ambayo huenda ikazidisha uhasama kati ya mataifa hayo mawili.

    Naibu wa waziri wa mashauri ya nje wa Urusi, Grigory Karasin, ameelezea kwamba Georgia inapanga kile alichosema ni uchokozi, hasa wakati nchi hiyo inajiandaa kukumbuka mwezi ujao, mwaka mmoja tangu vita kati ya nchi hizo mbili kufanyika.

    Katika ziara yake katika mji mkuu wa Georgia, makamu wa rais wa Marekani, Joe Biden, amemuahidi Rais Mikhail Saakashvili kwamba nchi yake itaendelea kumsaidia.

    Rais wa Georgia anatazamiwa kuomba msaada wa silaha na wanajeshi, katika kuilinda mipaka ya nchi hiyo.

    Bw Biden amesema kwamba msaada wowote ule utatolewa kwa kuzingatia mifumo ya kidemokrasia.


    Chanzo: BBC SWAHILI SERVICE.
     
  2. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    Yes lakini kaambiwa kabla haja saidiwa lazima a-prove kwamba Georgia is a true democratic maana na yeye ana matatizo yake huko nnchini kwake ndio maana EU bado ayumo hata kwenye consideration yet.
     
  3. H

    Hofstede JF-Expert Member

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    Saakashvil, ni mmoja kati ya watu wanaoiangukia Marekani ili kupata baraka za kutawala. Huyu alitumiwa na Conservatives wakati wa kampeni za uchaguzi marekani kuichokoza Rusia ili wapate talking point na yeye alipenda hasa McCain ashinde.

    Ila kwa serikali ya Obama ambayo imedhamiria diplomacy na kuboresha uhusiano na Rusia na hasa ikizingatiwa kuwa Rusia ndiye yupo nyuma ya mpango wa Nuclear wa Iran ni dhahiri kuwa kuisaidi Georgia kutarudisha nyuma harakati za Obama kuishawishi Rusia kwenye mambo mengi.

    Saakashvil asubiri Neo-cons warudi tena WH kwa mpango wake huo. Hivi ni nani anayetaka vita katika wakati huu wa uchumi kuporomoka?, Georgia waliisha onesha kuwa ni rogue nation hivyo kuwapatia silaha ni sawa na kumpa kichaa kiberiti kwenye ghala la petrol.
     
  4. Che Guevara

    Che Guevara JF-Expert Member

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    At the end Marekani itapeleka silaha Georgia.

    Marekani ina Rais wake, ila siasa za nchi hiyo, na hivyo maamuzi mengi, yanasukumwa na interest groups nyingi tu. Makampuni ya kutengeneza na kuuza silaha kama Boeing, Lockheed, MD etc. yanapenda wapate soko zaidi, hivyo watashinikiza wawakilishi wao (Senators & Congressmen) washawishi Serikali ya Marekani iiuzie Georgia silaha ili wao wapate soko na pesa.

    Urusi nayo itachangia Georgia iuziwe silaha, kwa kuwa Urusi imekuwa dhaifu kutetea misimamo yake hata pale inapochokozwa na vibaraka wa Marekani. Mfano vita vya Georgia vilianza pale majeshi ya Georgia yaliposhambulia majeshi ya kulinda amani ya Urusi na kukiuka makubaliano ya amani kati ya Urusi, Georgia na wapinzani wa Saakashvili. Georgia alivizia siku ya kuanza michezo ya Olimpiki ya Beijing kwa kuwa Putin alikuwa China. Marekani wa nchi za Magharibi wanamuona Medvedev kama mnyonge fulani hivi. Na hiyo ni kweli.
    Kwa kuwa Saakashvili wa Georgia ni kibaraka wa Marekani, hajapelekwa ICC kule The Hague. Ni Mahakama ya kisiasa inayoshtaki tu maadui wa kisiasa wa Marekani (Milosevic, Taylor, Al-Bashir). Marafiki wa Marekani (Sharon, Olmert, Saakashvili), na wamarekani kama George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld hawakamatwi.

    Marekani inapenda sana kutumia kisingizio cha 'demokrasia' kutaka Serikali ambazo si marafiki wala vibaraka wake ziondolewe madarakani, na hapohapo haitaki uchaguzi wa haki kwenye nchi ambazo inaelekea Serikali za vibaraka wake zitashindwa kwenye uchaguzi wa haki (mfano Misri kuna uchaguzi feki na nchi nyingine za Mashariki ya Kati huwa hakuna uchaguzi. Hamas ilishinda uchaguzi Palestina, nchi za magharibi wakakataa kuitambua na wakamwambia Mahmoud Abbas ang'ang'anie madarakani hadi leo yupo).

    Rais Medvedev wa Urusi alifanya upuuzi alipokubaliana na Obama kuwa Urusi na Marekani zipunguze idadi ya makombora yao ya nyuklia hadi yabaki 1,500 kwa kila mmoja. Hivi sasa Urusi inayo 2,800 na Marekani 2,200.
    Kumbuka kuwa Kamanda Mkuu wa Majeshi ya NATO always ni Mmarekani anayeteuliwa na Rais wa Marekani. Hivyo majeshi ya nchi za NATO yako chini ya Marekani, na marais wa Ukraine na Georgia wanatamani kujiunga NATO. Hivyo Urusi itakuwa imezungukwa.

    Kama Urusi ingekuwa na strong responses, nchi za magharibi zingerudisha heshima. Kumbuka comments za western politicians na media kuwa hawakutegemea kuwa Urusi ingezuia majeshi ya Georgia. Wamefikia kuidharau kiasi hicho.

    Toka Umoja wa Sovieti usambaratike, Marekani imekuwa ikikiuka makubaliano mengi tu, kama vile kutoeneza majeshi ya NATO eneo la Ujerumani Mashariki (ikaeneza), kutoruhusu nchi za zamani za WARSAW PACT kujiunga na NATO (ikazialika na zikajiunga), kutoruhusu nchi zilizokuwa zukiunda Umoja wa Sovieti kujiunga na NATO (imesema zina 'haki' ya kujiunga). Ni Urusi yenyewe tu ambayo imeambiwa haiwezi kuruhusiwa kujiunga. Sababu iko wazi.

    Kule Umoja wa Mataifa kwa mfano, Urusi ilitakiwa kutumia kura yake ya VETO kupinga vikwazo haramu dhidi ya Iran na Korea Kaskazini, kama ambavyo Marekani siku zote huwa inapiga kura ya VETO kupinga maamuzi dhidi ya Israel ambayo inatengeneza silaha za nyuklia Urusi haikufanya leo.

    Kutokana na Urusi kuonyesha response dhaifu, Marekani itauza silaha popote inapotaka, hata nchi jirani na adui na Urusi. Hii ni mpaka hapo Urusi itakapobadilika na kuwa inakomaa kama China inavyojaribu.
     
  5. I

    Interested Observer JF-Expert Member

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    you're biased. USA and Russia coexist, Georgia sasa hivi siyo tatizo!!
     
  6. Eqlypz

    Eqlypz JF-Expert Member

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    Duh!! Nyie watu mnaongea kishabiki sana

    Kwa kifupi Georgia inataka iingie EU na NATO lakini hawameet requirements zao na itawachukua miaka kadhaa, Russia anaogopa maana ukishambulia moja ya mwanachama wa NATO/EU wote wanakuja kumsaidia. It is evident Russia walitumia mgogoro wa mwaka jana na Georgia kujitutumua kuonyesha maguvu yao lakini jeshi lao sio la kutisha kama miaka ya nyuma.
     
  7. m

    mdaumie Member

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    kazi ipo
     
  8. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    Nevdev is the President of Russia Putin is the prime minister of the countrty the man who pin-pointed him for the post; and made shure he wins the election; its the same man who is pushing the Russian Parliament to change the constitution that a former President should return after he left the post due to time frame. So dont be surprised if Putin ever becomes the president of Russia again, matter of fact he is a hero in Russia. So to many Nevdev is seen as a Puppet on the strings of Putin he will never go against what he stands for.

    America now is isolated, the only remaining super power with extreme western ideologies (capitalism, white supremacy is better), its main ally Britian is no longer feared any more as you can see after the Iranian election with the diplomat conflicts and the way Ahamdenajad used his election campaign to show how he captured the British soldiers and how he made them beg for forgiveness before setting them free not mention Russia refusal to hand them the man who Britian thought was responsible for the murder of Victor Levtenyok, a former KGB spy who was living in exile in UK.

    Second you have to understand Russia does not need the EU that much its strongest allie is China. Russia conflict with many of its neighbours its purely based on America's plan to build and keep their missiles on those countries pointing at Russia. This is where Russia conflicts with its neighbours begin. And through this ideology that is why you see America are begging for an Iranian hand because Iran has those two as his protectors, and its the same reason America is staying as far away as Syria as possible he two has those two as his protectors. to make matters worse Geramny the strongest econmy in Europe his now dealing with Russia and the nature of the business will be very critical to the germany gas supply this shows Germany are no longer taking sides but their main interest which sees herself being in good relationship with Russia. This why MacCain could not ever win that election because he his of old school politics times have changed MK. investigate before you comment.
     
  9. Eqlypz

    Eqlypz JF-Expert Member

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    Wewe umeinvestigate?

    It's very simple, Russia aache kuuza silaha kwa Iran na Syria na nchi kama US, Denmark wataacha kuuza silaha kwa Georgia na Ukraine.

    Kuhusu biashara ya Gas kati ya Russia na Europe ni lose-lose situation, Russia watakuwa broke na Europe watafreeze (lakini watajenga more nuclear plants ana maisha yataendelea kazi hiko kwa Russian's concubines) ndio maana ata wakati vita baridi imepamba moto Soviet Union hawakukata supply ya gas. Kwa hiyo haya maneno wanayosema wanasiasa wakiwa majukwaani siyo wanayosema wanapokuwa nyuma ya pazia wanazungumza kwa siri. Go figure.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2009
  10. Eqlypz

    Eqlypz JF-Expert Member

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    Ghafla Ruskies wako concerned na wapi silaha zinaishia? By the way supplier mkubwa wa silaha kwa Georgia ni Ukraine.
     
  11. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    like i said investigate before you comment, Russia never traded with europe during the cold war. The pipe to europe is still in process so i do not know how you come up with your conclusions. Or may be you think countries in the Balkans belonged to EU back then.

    Second you have much to learn about Western Politics, these people never do business with an enemy nor gamble with people's lives. THe energy supply is very crucial to Germany so to get to the point of dealing with Russia you have to understand that the Germans see Russia as a long term supplier. If so you should understand they intend to be neutral with Moscow. As Russia is known to shut its pipe whenever its political ideologies is not supported on the countries that depend on him for its energy. much must have been discussed behind closed but the outcomes shows Germany is no longer seeing Russia as an enemy.

    It dont matter how much you arm Ukraine and Georgia this countries can never stand to mighty Russia. And the relation with Russia and the countries you mentioned go far than Arm deals, as you can see if you follow the nuclear war politics Russia has never condemned Iran nuclear programmes matter of fact they used to supply them with the Uranium and they had been supporting Syria during the cold war as it stood to America and share many other logical thinking. Today Russia and China are the biggest bussiness patner in the Middle East than America theres much on this discussion but it seems you have narrow and simple explanations of the matter.
     
  12. Eqlypz

    Eqlypz JF-Expert Member

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    Umm not so fast Juma, remember the contract between Leonid Brezhnev, chairman of the Soviet Communist party, and Willy Brandt, chancellor of West Germany? The construction (behind the Iron Curtain) begun in 1960s (heigh of Cold War) na gas ilikuwa supplied kwa mara ya kwanza kwa West Germany in 1973. Hiyo network ya Gas Pipelines kwa nchi zote za Ulaya magharibi ilikamilishwa miwsho wa miaka 1980s.

    Nobody sees Russia as enemy dah! tatizo Russia wanatumia supply ya gas political weapon iliku kuapply pressure i.e January 2006 na this year.

    ** Kasome kitabu kinaitwa The EU-Russian Energy Dialogue By Pami Aalto
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2009
  13. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    You only pick the Russia out of its other neighbours, germany had to apoligize for its behaviour in the second word war. but also you have to understand Poland which borders germany at the time was influenced by Moscow and the scars of the second world war where not yet forgiven so tension had to be eased.

    Mending Germany perpceptive to the world was what Will Brandt concentrated on has a chancellor. Remember he was the evil one (germany), as well so he had to apologize to anyone regardless.

    About the gas pipes to western europe that is News to me may be u should tells us wich countries they passed those pipes because as far as i know the agreement is not long and the pipes are under construction.

    I never said Russia was an enemy of the world but America and britian, a lot of that is to do with having much influence round the world or else why would America all of a sudden interfere in european politics on the issue of Georgia.
     
  14. Eqlypz

    Eqlypz JF-Expert Member

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    Obviously you didn't conduct your investigation thoroughly for a start you can read the book by Pami Aalto called The EU-Russian Energy Dialogue. Kuhusu pipeline iliyo under construction I am sure you are talking about Nord Stream (kati ya Vyborg, Russia na Greifswald, Germany).

    Not according to your earlier post,

     
  15. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    1+1 jibu lake ni sawa 5-3 i expect us to think outside the box when we discuss some issues my assumption is that we are not experts but we have a brief history of what we discuss or it becomes point less and turns into blah blah argument its my hope we dont go there.

    kwanza on the issue of russia enemy ebu sema ata hapo ulipo weka quote zako if there is anything to with the world. I hope you do know that Russia apart from the Us has Eu to tag with in most times especially towards its neighbours seeking Eu entrance and some of its foreign policies dont suit the EU union. So if we think a long these lines then you have to ask why did Germany decided to join in with Russia in this venture, as u have mentioned in some of ur post Russia is known to cut its supply to put certain influences. So why would germany go ahead with the venture knowing that. Simple what germany is saying we no longer willing to take sides on things that dont associate with us and we not intrested that much with other struggles you have with the Eu arent you making an ally their indirectly, considering Germany is the leading EU economy some will follow suit soon. May be is should say think before you comment.

    ps the Nord streaam is that new venture i want to know about the one wich was completed early 80's from russia to w.germany surely it should be on your as it talked about au ndio yale.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2009
  16. Eqlypz

    Eqlypz JF-Expert Member

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    Nord Stream (scheduled for 2011)
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    Original pipeline to west Germany through Iron Curtain ilitoka SU kupitia Belarus na Poland na kuingia Berlin.
     
  17. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    Hiyo kweli, habari hi nadhani ipo kwenye hicho kitabu tu the earliest Western pipe to Western Europe all i could find was to Austria and nothing to suggest germany and all i could see germany relying heavily on the gas to the point it was somehow funding those projects and the 1980's agreement to start the pipe project i even googled an article Belarus Connection which talks the history of Russia's gas resources in details and done by senior energy experts no mention of that pipe of yours. All it said most of the West traded in with germany via Ukraine pipes, they had pipes all over the east block but never Berlin nor much about poland until recently as at the time it relied mainly on coal for fuel so as many other Eu nations. the trade was more of butter than cash and whenthe eighties talk about the pipe with germany the Us condemned Germany, sasa hiyo yako naona ya ajabu.
     
  18. Eqlypz

    Eqlypz JF-Expert Member

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    Kumbe unadhani? Well kasome page 95 ya icho kitabu utapata jibu lako. To save you a trip to the library or bookstore nimeweka link chini hapo.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=bcXafAcD0W8C&lpg=PA147&dq=eu-russia%20energy%20dialogue%20by%20Pami%20Aalto%20page%2095&pg=PA95
     
  19. Eqlypz

    Eqlypz JF-Expert Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  20. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    well nimesoma hiyo link yako na hiyo page 95 yako she mentions about Germany using Russian gas especially West Berlin however no mention of the pipe stream to Germany but Austria as I said earlier before the 80's it was the only western Europe to have a pipe straight from soviet supply the rest relied on liquid gas to be stransported from Ukraine, even in your book it explains the germany funding of those projects i guess what because it helped them (in terms of transporting the closer it got to them the easier it was to reach to germany).

    so doing business and funding projects doesnt necessarly means they had that pipe into west berlin. matter of fact theres no mention of that pipe in your book nor anywhere else. another thing there are so many maps of the pipes on the net i could also bring one that is much clearer to berlin than the second you have put it via poland, but all it was, a projection.

    analyze what you read, but then we return to my main point Russia and the West conflict of influence i think even on that book of yours the same post you mentioned (95) tells you all i have been saying all along and the Germany perspective of it all regarding the matter. sasa basi usiseme barabara ya maili mia tatu imejaa mabonde wakati katika kila mile mia moja kuna bonde moja tuu. get back to your point that Russia had no rift with the west.
     
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