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Mamdani raps Bashir indictment

Discussion in 'International Forum' started by ByaseL, Aug 27, 2009.

  1. B

    ByaseL JF-Expert Member

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    By Francis Kagolo and Susan Akidi

    THE indictment of Sudan President Omar el-Bashir, and LRA chief Joseph Kony by the International Criminal Court (ICC) will exacerbate, rather than calm violence on the continent, Prof. Mahmood Mamdani has said.

    “The way to address violence is not by criminalising perpetrators,” he said.

    “We need to analyse why people are fighting. Find out the issues behind the endless civil wars and address them.”
    Mamdani said the ICC was dancing on the ‘tunes’ of Western states.

    “The government of Sudan committed lesser atrocities in Darfur compared to what US President George Bush committed in Iraq. Why didn’t the ICC issue arrest warrants against Bush?” Mamdani asked.

    He was speaking at a dialogue on lessons to learn from the Darfur conflict at Makerere University on Tuesday.

    Mamdani, who is a professor of political science at the US Columbia University, said revenging is done by victims but not the elite and institutions like the ICC.
    “The future of our children is more important than the criminalisation of individuals,” he added.

    Although he acknowledged that both Bashir and Kony had committed atrocities, Mamdani said international NGOs had blown the Darfur conflict out of proportion.

    “The rule of law cannot be introduced from outside. We are not yet back into colonialism. These NGOs must be accountable to African governments,” he stressed.

    Bashir and Kony are wanted by the ICC for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
    The conflict in Darfur began in February 2003, and the UN says more than 400,000 people have died.

    But Mamdani said the figure was exaggerated, mainly by the UN and the ICC, to criminalise Bashir.


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  2. G

    Gacheke Gachihi Member

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    Prof. Mahmood Mamdani, I have read more about him since he was in Uganda, a small book he wrote (Fascism and Imperialism in uganda)....africa, kwa nini tunawaua watu wetu ....Kwa nini Bashir hajawalinda wasudani wote ..kwa nini....
     
  3. MwanaFalsafa1

    MwanaFalsafa1 JF-Expert Member

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    Africa bwana. A person commits crime we are told to lete them be so as to bot maintain peace and harmony. Where is that peace and harmony any way? That's why these criminals do what they do because they know the most they are going to get is a slap on the wrist. Na bado uta sikia watu waki watetea the likes of Bashir & Kony.
     
  4. M

    MzalendoHalisi JF-Expert Member

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    Impunity friends!!

    Why????
     
  5. n

    ntangeki Member

    #5
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    I think no one should be above the law. Kama jamaa wamefanya makosa ni haki yao kabisa kwenda kujibu mashitaka. Kwanini watu wanaogopa kuwakamata eti amani itatoweka....amani gani hiyo wakati wao ndo wamesababisha mauaji ya kikatili???

    Mimi naona wanakesi ya kujibu, wakamatwe tu!!!!!
     
  6. N

    Namtih58 JF-Expert Member

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    Nakubaliana nawe hapo, ijapo mimi naona ingekuwa vizuri zaidi Afrika tuwe na mahakama yetu sisi wenyewe.

    Sababu yangu kusema hivyo ni kuwa naona unafiki wa mataifa tajiri umezidi. Hivi wako tayari kuwahukumu watu kutoka afrika lakini husikii viongozi wa nchi zao wakishtakiwa.

    Kwanini wasimletee Bush mashtaka kwa mauwaji ya raia wa Iraq kwa kuwa umeshathibitishwa kuwa Iraq haikuwa na hayo WMD na wala haina, yeye kaivamia nchi ya watu kwa njia ya udanganyifu.
    Kwanini sisikii viongozi CIA, MOSSAD, MI5 na wengineo wakishtakiwa kwa mateso walio wafanyia washukiwa.

    Itakuwaje mtu kufungwa zaidi ya miaka 7 bila mashtaka eti kwa kuwa nimshukiwa. Sheria za nchi hasa Britain ambayo ina the longest detension period ya siku 28 (wanataka kuongeza iwe siku 48), hata haikaribii!

    Hao wamarekani ambao wanayafanya haya sheria zao haziruhusu mtu kudetainiwa zaidi ya siku mbili bila kushtakiwa. Sasa ni haki kweli?

    Jamani tujiweke mbali na unafiki wa aina hii. Afrika naona wakati umefika tuanze kujitegemea sisi wenyewe, kutoka kwenye vyumba vya habari hadi mahakama za kijumuiya.
     
  7. Companero

    Companero Platinum Member

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    Wanamjadala naomba msome kitabu kipya cha Mamdani, niko sehemu ya pili na nakubaliana kabisa na jamaa. Uchambuzi wake wa kina wa takwimu hewa kuhusu Darfur unaonesha kuna unafiki mkubwa kuhusu hali ya huko Sudan. Kitabu hicho kinaitwa 'Saviours and Survivors: Darfur, Politics, and the War on Terror'.

    Kwa ufupi Mamdani anashauri kuwe na kitu anachokiita 'Survivors Justice' na sio 'Victor's Justice'. Hii ya pili ni hatari maana inafanya ambao sio 'victors' wawe 'victims'. Na wakishakuwa hivyo hawachelewi kugeuka na kuwa 'killers' kama ilivyokuwa Rwanda. Na hata wasipobadilika ni rahisi kwa 'victors' kuwaonea. Hiyo ya kwanza ni kama ile ya Sauzi ambapo kunakuwa na 'Truth and Reconciliation'. Hiyo inayapa makundi yote - yaliyoonea na kuonewa - fursa ya kujenga upya 'just society'
     
  8. M

    MpendaTz JF-Expert Member

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    Africa kuwa na mahakama yetu wenyewe sio leo, itachukua muda sana. Viongozi wa Africa wameangalia Zimbabwe ikiteketea mpaka ikatembelea magoti sijui uamuzi wa kesi yoyote ile kwenye hiyo mahakama itachukua muda gani plus finacing the court?
    Nahisi inaweza kuwachukua viongozi wa Africa karne nzima kukubaliana tu ni wapi hiyo mahakama ijengwe, au iwe makao makuu including its set up!.

    Nakubaliana sana na swala kwamba kuna unafiki mkubwa "double standards" sana jinsi nchi zilizoendelea zinavyoshughulikia mambo ya Africa.

    Leo hii silaha zote zinazotumika kwenye hizi conflict areas zote Africa zinatokea huko huko kwao, wanaozisafirisha ni wao na ndege na meli ambazo ni registered huko huko, kampuni ni za huko, leseni wanatoa wao. Kama kweli wanayo nia ya kutatua haya matatizo ya kuuana huku Africa wanajua kabisa la kufanya. Na dealers wa silaha wangekuwa ndiyo wa kukamata kwanza pamoja na watengenezaji na wasambazaji kama wanavyokabiliana na madawa ya kulevya! na kufikishwa kwenye ICC. Ukiangalia sana utaona wao wanajali kile kinachowaumiza wao moja kwa moja tu basi.
     
  9. Masanja

    Masanja JF-Expert Member

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    WAKUU mimi nimemsoma sana Mamdani. Ila kifupi huyu msomi ni apologetic tuu hana jipya. Anakaa nyuma ya Keyboard yake huko Columbia University anaona kwamba..swala ni takwimu. Hell no! Aende Darfur aone watu wanavyoishi kama ngedere porini! Hivi kwa nini maisha ya mwafrika tunayaona hayana thamani? Eti Bush kaua Iraq? is our concern in Iraq or the lives of our fellow Africans? Yaani mimi hapa ndo wasomi wetu siwaelewi...wanatusaliti...kwa hiyo..hata kama Bashir kaua..asichukuliwe hatua mpaka Bush ashtakiwe? Kama kiongozi kama Bashir kaua..aende ajibu mashataka. Simple. Hizi apologies za akina MAMDANI NI ZILE ZA KIZAMANI za kuona kwamba mkubwa lazima aheshimike. Hatujazoea kuwawajibisha wakubwa katika bara letu.

    Kuna wanaosema eti...tuanzishe mahakama za kiafrika..but we ALL know the truth..hakuna kiongozi wa kiafrika aliye mkweli. wananchi hawana viongozi wa kuwaamini..perhaps kama hawatusikilizi sisi..basi watawasikiliza wazungu!

    Well najua wengi hawajui jinsi hii mahakama ya ICC inavyofanya kazi..lakini kifupi..ni nchi zetu zilizosaini huu mkataba wa Roma mpaka leo ziko nchi 30 a kiafrika zilizo saini uu mkataba.... Sasa kama waafrika walijua athari zake mbona hawakukataa kusaini huu mkataba? Hivi sisi waafrika tuna akili kweli? US mpaka leo huu mkataba wameukataa kata kata..ndo maana hii mahakama hawaitambui. Leo mtu anaongea eti US ishtakiwe...hii inaonyesha viongozi wetu wanavyotumwa kusaini hii mikataba hawaelewi maana yake...wanaenda kufanya shopping...

    Tuache kuwa apologetic...Bashir belongs in Prison..tuache hizi conspiracy theories..US has nothing to do with suffering in Darfur..its we Africans. Tuache kuwa na excuse for everything. We kill each other tunaanza kuwasingizia wengine..
     
  10. Ab-Titchaz

    Ab-Titchaz Content Manager Staff Member

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    ...Well stated.
     
  11. MwanaFalsafa1

    MwanaFalsafa1 JF-Expert Member

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    Ndiyo maana hatu wafanyi kitu mafisadi in the name of "truth and reconciliation". Mkuu bwana hakuna peace and reconciliation mpaka justice ipatikane. Wewe umemuua baba angu, mama angu, mke wangu au watoto wangu and you think tuki wekwa meza moja I will simply forgive and forget? Justice isipo patikana ndiyo animosity ina kua na kurithishwa from generation to generation. Na asi kudanganye mtu hizi "truth and reconciliation" siyo kati ya victims kwa victimizers, ni kati ya viongozi ambao hata hawaja athirika na maafa wanayo sababishwa. Wananchi wa kawaida mna lazimishwa kusahau na kusamehe. How do you do that?
     
  12. MwanaFalsafa1

    MwanaFalsafa1 JF-Expert Member

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    Sasa mkuu wawauzia silaha za kuua watu wako mwenyewe na wewe una kubali hiyo ni akili mkuu? Every business requires supply and demand. If there is no demand there is no supply.

    Double standards aside kwa nini kila Afrika inapo hitajika kufanya kitu kwa ajili ya watu wake tuna angalia nchi zingine? Tukiendelea kusema viongozi wa Afrika wasi shitakiwe kwa sababu kuna kiongozi wa sehemu fulani nae kafanye hivyo hivyo haja shitakiwa tuta fika lini? Issue siyo what Bush or whoever did. Hapa issue ni what Bashir did. Kama ana makosa ashitakiwe simple as that.

    Mkuu exagerations zipi? Do you watch t.v and see what's happening there? Au wewe pia ni mmoja wa wale wanaoona hizo zote ni propaganda? You just have to turn on your t.v. to get just a glimpse of the situation. Whether exaggerated or not wewe unacho ona kwenye t.v. hauoni kuwa ni crisis? Let's hold accountable whoever and all that are responsible.
     
  13. Companero

    Companero Platinum Member

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    Mwana wa Falsafa ndio maana nikashauri mkasome wenyewe kitabu chake badala ya kusikiliza tu upande mmoja wa ICTR, USAID, SAVE DARFUR n.k. Msikilize na yeye hoja zake upime kwenye mizania ya medani yako ya Falsafa. Hebu ngoja nikupe dondoo kidogo kuhusu hoja yake ya umuhimu wa kutafuta/kuujua ukweli badala ya kusikiliza tu vya kuambiwa:

    "THE SAVE DARFUR MOVEMENT claims to have learned from Rwanda. But what is the lesson of Rwanda? For many of those mobilised to save Darfur, the lesson is to rescue before it is too late, to act before seeking to understand. Though it is never explicitly stated, Rwanda is recalled as a time when we thought we needed to know more; we waited to find out, to learn the difference between Tutsi and Hutu, and why one was killing the other, but it was too late. Needing to know turned into an excuse for doing nothing. What is new about Darfur, human rights interventionists will tell you, is the realisation that sometimes we must respond ethically and not wait. That time is when genocide is occuring. But how do we know it is genocide? Because we are told it is. This is why the battle for naming turns out to be all-important: Once Darfur is named as a site of genocide, people recognise something they have already seen elsewhere and conclude that what they know is enough to call for action. They need to know no more in order to act...Those who prioritise doing over knowing assume that genocide is the name of a consequence, and not its context or cause..." - page 3

    "This book invites the reader to rethink Rwanda in light of Darfur: Rather than a call to act in the face of moral certainty, it is an argument against those who substitute moral certainty for knowledge, and who feel virtuous even when acting on the basis of total ignorance. Indeed the lesson of Darfur is a warning to those who would act first and understand later. Only those possessed of disproportionate power can afford to assume that knowing is irrelevant, thereby caring little about the consequences of their actions..." - page 6

    "In 2001, I wrote a book on the Rwanda genocide in which I warned against conferring an ethic of impunity on those who resist genocide. Such impunity led to the killings of some of the millions who died in Congo between 1998 and 2002. Equally, I warned against turning Nuremburg into a paradigm for victors' justice and employing it as a response to the Rwanda genocide. For a continent where a relentless pursuit of justice in postindependence period had all too often turned into vengeance, a more relevant paradigm would be that of survivors' justice. Based on South Africa's transition to a postapartheid society, it would seek to reconcile rather than to punish, to look forward rather than backward" - page 7

    Cf. War in Sudan's Darfur 'is over <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8224424.stm>
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2009
  14. Z

    Zhule JF-Expert Member

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    Je unasema kwamba hakuna kosa kwa mauaji ya watu wa Sudan? ICCTR wanapelekewa mashitaka na kufungua faili. Hata wewe ukiwa na ushahidi wa kutosha unaruhusiwa kufungua mashitaka dhidi ya USA. kama american walifanya kosa wairaki watafungua mashitaka dhidi yao, wakinyamaza wameridhika kwasababu walimuhukumu Sadan kwa sheria zao. Uenda waliokufa kwenye vita wanahesabu kama damu zilizo waletea ukombozi ikilinganishwa na waliouwawa au wangeendelea kuuwawa na Sadam. Je haki isitendeke kwa watu wa Darful kwasababu ya vita vya Irak au kwa sababu ICCTR iko Ulaya. Africa wenyewe kwa wenyewe ndo kunatabaka and rule of arms nani amfunge paka Kengelewe. Kama Wadarfu wameona kuna kosa na ushaidi upo mashitaka yamefunguliwa tuaje sheria ifanye kazi siyo kulindana.
     
  15. Masanja

    Masanja JF-Expert Member

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    Ndo maana wazungu wanatuona mabulicheka miaka yote. Huyu Mamdani ukisoma kile kitabu chake cha when victims become killers..ndo utaona anaongelea kwenye mantiki ipi. Hiki kitabu ni mwendelezo ule ule... Hivi hiyo truth na reconcilliation..waafrika tumeianza lini? miaka yote..it has been "truth and reconcilliation" lakini kama alivyosema muungwana hapo juu..ni kwa ajili ya wakubwa wanaotoa amri wananchi wauawe..harafu wanadai "foget and forgive" then wanarudi madarakani... And the cycle continues. Meanwhile mwananchi wa kawaida anaendelea kuishi kwa unga wa sembe kwenye kambi za wakimbizi! We have to reach a point tuone kwamba maisha ya mwafrika yana thamani. Hapa hakuna mchawi, mchawi ni sisi wenyewe. Viongozi wa Africa wanaiogopa ICC kwa sababu kule hakuna rushwa walizozizoea. Ocampo akitoa indictment...hakuna wa kui-withdraw. TATIZO LETU WAAFRIKA TUNAPENDA NA TUMEZOEA SHORT CUT YA MAMBO.

    Mimi nasema tena, waafrika tukitaka kuishi na kuwa rightful members wa hii dunia tunahitaji kupingana na hawa wazungu kwa hoja. Siyo hizi longo longo za madikteta wanakutana Libya..wanaanza bla blah za kulindana. Tukubali Africa is our motherland and our responsibility but not at the expense of our compatriots. Haiwezekani wewe uue wananchi wako..harafu kesho useme eti ni conspiracy za wazungu...

    I am one of those dissappointed with the so called wasomi wa Africa. They cant stand up and say the truth-atleast write the truth... Swala la Darfur tumeshaligeuza limekuwa ni wa of words against save Darfur, Amnesty International etc..yaani sisi hatuoni role yetu kama waafrika. Tulirogwa na nani??

    Harafu jana Gen. Agwai wa Nigeria bila aibu anasimama na kusema eti vita Darfur imekwisha..so is he helping the murderous Bashir or what?

    tunahitaji msaada wa bwana Yesu. Short of miracles..Africa is just doomed.
     
  16. Margwe

    Margwe JF-Expert Member

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    I think mahakama huwa itamwachia mtu huru kama hana hatia,no reason of avoiding Bashir facing the Justice.
     
  17. B

    ByaseL JF-Expert Member

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    Ahsante nakubaliana na wewe kama umesoma kitabu cha Mamdani atakuwa ameandika kwa kina. Prof. Mamdani is a well balanced intellectual na kazi yake ni ya kueshimika sana. However, kuhusu kughushi kwa takwimu na hizi NGOs naweza nikasema hivi. Kuna kitu kinaitwa constructive ambiguity yaani kwa kufanya sio ndivyo inaweza ikasaidia wakati fulani. Hizi NGO zinakuza takwimu za vifo hili dunia isituke na kuweza kuchukua hatua madhubuti. Kimaadili ni jambo baya lakini kama linaweza kuleta mwamko wa kusaidia kupunguza dhuluma katika jamii tunaweza tukasema kuna uzuri wake!
     
  18. N

    Namtih58 JF-Expert Member

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    Ungesoma nilichoandika vizuri ungeona hakuna popote nimeandika mwenye kosa asishitakiwe, ila tuwe na mahakama zetu wenyewe.

    Pili huwezi kupeleka mashitaka dhidi ya USA sababu wao hawajajiunga, wakiwa pamoja na urusi na Israeli.
    Kwa maneno yake mwenyewe clinton, alisema sababu ya kutojiunga ni

    "it had "significant flaws" that threaten the rights of Americans and legitimate activities of the U.S. military."

    Sasa kama ni legitimate uoga wa nini. Unless wanajua mengine wao hufanya hayafai?

    kumbuka "The American Service Members Protection Act, Threatens American lawyers with legal action should they ever work on a case which could lead to a US citizen being put before the ICC. And it ultimately would allow US troops to come and free anyone on trial in The Hague." [Soma hapa] huu si unafiki.

    Mwenye kosa ni lazima aadhibiwe, lakini huwezi kuniambia eti kuwe na sheria halafu, zenyewe haziapply kwa kila mtu. Hili ndio sasa hivi lintusumbua afrika ambapo viongozi wetu wanatunyanyasa bila kujali kwa kuwa sheria zinakuwa applied selectively.
    Sasa itakuwaje tu-complain hapa afrika halafu tu endorse the same internationally.

    Kama ni kosa, ni kosa hamna cha ni Rais, ni mzungu wala mmarekani! Wote wanafaa kuhukumiwa sawa, na kama kuna koti linaonekana kubagua, basi halifai! Na kwangu mimi sioni haja ya kujiunga.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2009
  19. J

    JokaKuu Platinum Member

    #19
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    Namtih58,

    ..binafsi nakuunga mkono kwamba wote wenye makosa wapelekwe mahakamani.

    ..haiingii akilini watu kama Pieter Botha na Magnus Malan bado wanapeta uraiani pamoja na maovu yote waliyoyasimamia.

    ..mafedhuli hawa kama wangekuwa wameua mzungu nakwambia wangetafutwa popote walipojificha.

    ..ninachotofautiana na wewe ni kwamba mabaradhuli hawa washitakiwe ktk mahakama za kimataifa kwasababu hizi zetu sina imani nazo.

    ..zaidi napendekeza wahifadhiwe ktk mahabusu zetu na watumikie vifungo vyao ktk magereza yetu Afrika. nina imani mahabusu na magereza yetu yatawanyoosha kuliko magereza ya ulaya na marekani.

    NB:

    ..ile mahakama ya Wanyarwanda pale Arusha ina mahabusu nzuri kuliko hospitali au government high school.
     
  20. N

    Namtih58 JF-Expert Member

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    Ndio maana nikasema tuwe na mahaka zetu Afrika wala si nchi binafsi. Sababu yetu kutokuwa na imani na mahakama zetu ni kwa sababu kuna ubaguzi wa aina fulani when it comes to applying the law. Which is, in essence, the same issue with ICC. Sasa tuki kubali ICC, je tunahaki ya kukosa imani na mahakama zetu?

    Hapa mkuu nakuunga mikono na miguu, sababu magereza mengine bwana hata uswahilini hamna nyumba kama zile.

    Halafu huwa inanikera kuona eti mapoliticians wanapewa special privileges.
     
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