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Maandamano Wanafunzi London na Serikali ya Umoja wa Kitaifa

Discussion in 'International Forum' started by Gurudumu, Nov 30, 2010.

  1. Gurudumu

    Gurudumu JF-Expert Member

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    Wanafunzi wa elimu ya juu Uingereza wanaendelea kuandamana wakipinga ongezeko la ada. Walimpigia kura Nick Cleg kuunga mkono sera ya chama chake kuhusu elimu kwa wote. Wanamlaumu Nick kujiunga kujiunga katika serikali ya umoja wa kitaifa hivyo kusaliti wapiga kura wake.

    Pengine hili linatoa mfano kwa wanafunzi wa elimu ya juu wa Tanzania namna ya kudai na kutetea haki zao na vizazi vijavyo

    lakini mfano huu nadhani pia unatoa funzo kwa wale wachache wanaoshabikia serikali ya umoja wa kitaifa.

    Kwa upana wake, mfano huu unaashiria kwamba nguvu ya upinzani ikipungua bungeni, nguvu hiyo inahamia mitaani.
     
  2. M

    Matarese JF-Expert Member

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    Ni kweli inaweza hamia mitaani, ila sio mitaa ya Tanzania, kwa ufupi Tz hakuna demokrasia ya kweli, ukifanya hivyo mtaishia jela kuwa intimidated au hata RIP!
    Tuna safari ndefu Tz ya kujifunza demokrasia ya kweli inakuwaje.
     
  3. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    Again ushenzi wa mzungu unaendelea, kwanza inabidi uelewe England is pretty much a class society na wameona elimu ya wengi italeta matatizo in the future kwenye kudai haki za utaifa na usawa. With so many pressure groups these days and a much perceptive society the're bound to problems to the status quo in the long run.

    The increase in fees is aimed to put off students of lower strata attending university, as the amount quoted is just rediculuos. And it does not stop there, they will also force university to scrap many courses that they see can be offered by sixth form colleges. Ni wabaguzi sana hawa especially the conservative these people know what works and what doesnt by playing with poeples social position and thoughts thats how they formulate their policies.
     
  4. N

    Newvision JF-Expert Member

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    Contena sina hakika sana na unachokisema kumbuka the lower class in the UK ni wachache sana katika population nao ni jamaa zetu wengi weusi waliokwenda kuijenga mitaa ya London etc etc kutoka the Carribean wengi ni hao hao. Ila kwa sasa tatizo ni kuwa maisha Uingereza kwa ujumla ni damn costly siyo kwa middle or lower class only but for all even the rich. I have lived in the UK for substantial amount of time so I understand what it looks like.
     
  5. Fab

    Fab JF-Expert Member

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    mie i agree with you Contena waingereza washenzi sana,wanaweka system/policies za kuwaprofit wao tu...
    mwaka uliopita nilikosa chuo,nilichoapply kusoma foundation year...kisa tuu wanataka international students ambao wanalipa hela nyingi...na mie ni homestudent
    na ukiangalia vyuo vingi,wanascrap foundation year,wanabaki na international foundation year ili waingize pesa nyingi...:redfaces:
     
  6. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    New Vision

    The lower class is full of immigrants true, but a majority are native whites depending where you resided and observed with the naked eye. But if you go places like newcaste, stoke on trent and other areas where the population is almost white you'd understand better. These are the areas which suffer the most due to the decline of tradional industries that accomodated those residents. There is huge unemployment in some places and dilapidated housing estates you'd think your seeing Kosovo instead of england.

    What has happened in the last two decades West Africans families had pushed their kids in the cities to take advantage of the University education, along the way this has pushed local white residents to follow the trend in masses. Something they would not have done it on their own due to life perspective, but africans came with those ambtions in the first place and caused a wave in the inner cities especially in London. Leo hata watoto wetu wengi (wa kitanzania) wenye miaka ya kuwa chuo wapo chuo. Sasa hili si tatizo sana (mweusi unaweza mmbagua) lakini ni tatizo kwa waingereza weupe utawaweka wapi wote economically and their skills. Hapo ndipo unategemea maandamano na social unrest and this policy is aimed at stopping the wave.

    Mzungu afikirii kama mweusi yeye anataka indepent na benefit kwake si tija. Sasa unapotoa hada from £3000 to £9000 a year na most degree ni three years ina maana by the time wana gradute in most cases at 21yrs, already wanadaiwa £27,000 and that doesnt guarantee them a better pay. Lakini kwenye mawazo tayari mtu ana mortage ambayo inabidi awenayo in most cases lazima a-raise about twenty percent the average cost of a house in London ni £200,000, twenty percent ni £40,000. Agraduate salary is between £19,000 to £25,000, na wao wanadai ukilipwa zaidi ya £21,000 wanaanza kuchukua deni lao bado hawajakata taxi, NI, ujala, nauli, uja socialize na matumizi mengine uoni ni namna ya ku-put off students from poor background. Ni long argument na kwa sasa sina muda I hope nimekupa mistari ya kufanyia uchunguzi.
     
  7. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    why waste time with a foundation degree go do an Acess course it qualifies you straight into a degree after that its free and one year. Or do a diploma for two years for free at a college and then go to uni for one year. Foundation degree is a waste of time. Im out.
     
  8. Fab

    Fab JF-Expert Member

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  9. Gurudumu

    Gurudumu JF-Expert Member

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    Contena,

    Your cost of education projection and its implication to later life has added another dimention in my understanding of this issue whichi I would not have imagined, thank you.

    The question in this thread now is if Tanzanian students are equiped to put policies and political processes in broader equation, hence fight for their life now and in the future.

    I would also appreciate a response from Tanzanian students studying in tz
     
  10. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    You need to do your research on the Uni ur trying and foundation courses are bound to be popular with younger home students and experienced workforce. However if you did your research access and the diploma are the way. Especially with diploma by the third year when you want tp go to Uni there are huge dropouts so a chance wont be a problem and a lesser debt at the end.

    Unless unataka cha mgonjwa from foundation lakini access gives you the path to most universities unless your applying for a popular course then we have a problem. But if you apply by March one of the option is sure to give you a conditional offer anyway that was my experience and it got me to second tier Uni (watch out on your personal statement it matters alot). But diploma is your best option considering the debt.
     
  11. Gurudumu

    Gurudumu JF-Expert Member

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    Wapi haki na demokrasia iliwahi kupewa kwenye kisahani cha dhahabu?
     
  12. Mporipori

    Mporipori Member

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  13. Gurudumu

    Gurudumu JF-Expert Member

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    For Tanzanian students its hard to do that, although majority wishes to. This has been due to family backgrounds., mojority of students come from poor and average families and hence hasitate to dare do anything against the ruling class fearing to loose their golden university chances &disappoint their poor families.. Its a long way for tanzanian youths to change their attitudes and make a move unless measures are taken, take an example of Mzumbe University., students are behaving as if they are secondary school students....[/QUOTE]

    Kwani Mzumbe wanabehave vipi mkuu, wengine hatujui?
     
  14. Gsana

    Gsana JF-Expert Member

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    Ts true young un students r from low or last class society,going against order of govt.is as much good as going against your life for its a golden chance 2b in university for the poor lyk me. Anyway time will tell n we must be saved from new slave lords of our nation.
     
  15. Wacha1

    Wacha1 JF-Expert Member

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    Hao wanafunzi ni wapumbavu tu ambao wamekuwa mislead na mijitu mijinga. Ukiangalia kwa undani hawana sababu ya kulalamika kuelekea mfumo mzima wa education fees na grants. Wao wana issue nyingine tu ... .... kama ni mfuatiliaji wa maswala ya kisiasa nchini Wingereza utaligundua hilo.
     
  16. Gurudumu

    Gurudumu JF-Expert Member

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    asante mkuu, labda kama ungejizuia kuwatukana na kutuambia basi ni nini hicho wanachopigania?
     
  17. Wacha1

    Wacha1 JF-Expert Member

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    Unaufahamu mfumo wa fees na grants kwa Home students wa UK kabla hatujaendelea?
     
  18. Gurudumu

    Gurudumu JF-Expert Member

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    Sifahamu mkuu, mimi niko Tz na nadhani wengi wangepeda kujua. unadhani nini kinawasukuma wanafunzi hao kuandamana, na kwa nini kwa mtazamo wako wanasingizia suala la kupandishwa kwa ada.
     
  19. Masanja

    Masanja JF-Expert Member

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    Mkuu Contena heshima mbele,

    Naona umetoa mtizamo mzuri kwa hii issue ya waingereza na swala zima la kulipa karo. Mimi nilibahatika kusoma UK (first tier uni) lakini niliingia kama foreigner kwa mixed sources za funding and ofcourse my own savings (at a great sacrifice). What I can say is, lets start treating uni education as any other investment.Tuache hizi ideas kwamba ukimaliza shule lazima uajiriwe! Most people have miserably failed kuona kwamba elimu ya chuo kikuu ni kama investments nyingine kuanzia stock market to savings kwenye bank. Na kwa UK mi naona ni hangover ya socialism (if it ever exisisted) kind of (thats why I dont like Labour!). Kusema ukweli mimi leo, nikiangalia hata hapa kwetu Tz..Its possible kukutana na kijana anafanya kazi na kupata hela ya kutosha kwenye kampuni kubwa au yuko chuo anapata support ya wazazi wake vizito au ni kiongozi mkuu serikalini..lakini bado wanataka hela ya bure/scholarship. Kwa Tanzania tumeshindwa kabisa kuiona elimu kama kitega uchumi kinachostahili kufanyiwa savings/personal sacrifices.

    Kwa UK...just like in Tanzania ya leo....tatizo la wengi ni feeling ya entitlement. Kuwa elimu ni haki ya kila mtu. Well we can say so and spin the way we want..but Human Rights are never human rights and they have never existed. Nina uzoefu kiasi na mfumo wa US kuhusu elimu...its damn expensive lakini..kila mtu anasacrifice kuipata hiyo elimu na kulipa baadaye...hakuna sense ya entitlement..you have to earn it!

    I know, I may sound radical here, But wengi wetu humu, me included ni watoto wa wakulima..lakini tumetokea kuapprciate value ya elimu knowing and believing what it can do to improve our lots. Hii ya kulalamika kwamba mtoto wa masikini au mkulima hatapata opportunity..nadhani ni kwa sababu tunategemea state ifanye hiki au kile. I personally, neither my father nor my mother..know nilisoma vipi zaidi ya form four! Kifupi ni kwamba nilihangaika na kujua elimu ni nini na nitapigana vipi..

    Maoni yangu...serikali ihakikishe bodi ya mkopo inafanya kazi kwa ufanisi mkubwa (acha hizi longo longo za sasa) kama mtu anataka mkopo aweze kupata na vile vile aweze kuulipa. watu tujifunze kujitegemea (wonder what happened to ujamaa na kujitegemea). Tujifunze kujifanyia savings kusudi hata kama ukiomba scholarship..uwe na kianzio chako. Hii mentality ya kutegemea vya bure ndo inawafanya watu waishie mitaani. Kwa nini uweze kununua gari ya million ishirini lakini ushindwe kulipa million tano za kufanya MBA pale UDSM? inaingia akilini kweli? Sorry I dont buy that either...

    Kwa UK..swala la kwamba minorities ndo wataumia halina ubishi..lakini when I was there..I was never impressed na hao hao minorities (baadhi) unakuta kazi yao ni kuzaa na kupanga foleni kwenye benefits (sorry for saying it the way it is). Huwezi taka system iwe fair kama huhangaiki na to me, Labour waliharibu UK...watu kufikiria kwamba..as long as you are poor..the state will take care of you. Hapana baadhi ya waafrika mlio ulaya...acheni mentalities za kuplay "victim card". I know some TZ friends in Europe walikuwa na mpaka sasa hawafanyi kazi..wanategemea benefits..na ni wengi...similarly..angalia ndugu zetu wasomali..nk....kazi yao ni kuweka watoto tuu..harafu unategemea huyo mtoto kesho aende Cambrige kusomea science? wakati maisha yake yote anajua kwamba serikali ndo inajukumu la kumlisha?

    Capitalism has survived kwa sababu ya misingi hiyo hiyo mnayotaka kuivunja.. To me cha muhimu nikupata fair play ground.....watu tuhangaike na kuyatafuta mafanikio. Hii culture ya kulalamika kwamba ni minorities wanaumizwa..I dont buy it. Kwa sababu....mafanikio ya wengi hata watoto wa wakulima kama sisi..si swala la bahati..bali ni hard work.

    So..hao vijana wa UK...waache longo longo....wakope walipe....wengine wasome..waswahili wenzangu..funzeni watoto wenu..the virtue of hardwork! wakifanya hivyo watafanikiwa.
     
  20. Juma Contena

    Juma Contena JF-Expert Member

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    Kaka Masanja,

    Maneno yako yamejaa ukweli mtupu lakini the issue is deeper than that on why these students are vocal, and why they have a strong support of academic world on their side. You have to remember not everyone is equal in any society wanasema there is a small third world in the first and there is a small first in the third. Hivyo ni kwamba kila society ina maginalised group of people only in the third world the gap is too wide between the 'haves' and 'have nots'.

    Ukianzia hapo ndipo utapolielewa suala zima, huku si Tanzania kwa hivyo mfano wa Tanzania na UK unakuwa irrelevant. For staters mtoto anaetokea kwenye familia za kuanzia middle-middle class family and upwards (hii ni more than half of the population already) in most cases wazazi wake wamesha mtayarishia a pot for his/her uni funds.

    Kwa hiyo kwa kuzaliwa tu in one of those social groups ina maana wengine tayari wapo ahead of others in terms of life advantages na by the time wanamaliza shule wapo debt free. Hakitoka hapo bado ana uwezo wa kufanya kazi ya internship for a year or two ambazo zina offer very little pay (just to gain work experience) bado akawa anapata support ya wazazi wake na hakikaa nyumbani with a luxury. By the time these preveledged kids think they have gained enough work experience they jump straight at the mid-range or at the top of their proffesion, already ahead of their poor students counterparts.

    On the other hand most students that come from council estates back ground wakimaliza shule wana debt already because they haven't got the parents who can afford fees therefore mkopo is necessary (na sasa wanataka kuwaongezea deni). Pili yeye akimaliza mara nyingi by being at home he/she becomes a burden if he/she is not earning to help with the costs of running a house. Si unaona matokeo yake inabidi achukue kazi tu yenye mshahara wowote mara nyingi ndio kwenye figures ambazo ni quote awali na aondoke nyumbani.

    On that note he ends up not using his qualification skills. Kingine most major employers either hire on basis of having work experience or training you, the former is associated with with large proffesional salaries the latter is more to do with charity work. Hii pia si muda mrefu ilikuwa na debate yake ambayo bado aijapata suluhisho, kuna pressure groups ambazo zime question the manner these big firms zinavyotoa apprentiships and pays. Ni kama vile indirect discrimination kwa sababu watoto wa maskini can not afford to go without pay, therefore they end up taking jobs that require little technical skills. Whereby preveledged graduates can go straight into work trainings and gain skills to apply for better position and be as equally competitive as long-term employees in the field.

    Sasa ukiangalia na majukumu ya mzungu kwenye mambo ya mortages and other responsibilitities what is the point of that uni debt then, considering you end up working next to average Joe who never went to uni in the first place and he is starting life without debt.

    Hapo ndipo utata unapoanza kwa sababu hawa si watanzania, mzungu anapanga maisha yake from an early stage amna fate kwao (ndio maana hata maana ya mungu inakuwa i make sense anymore kwao), what is the point of accumulating the debt, wakati alipo maliza college angeanza kazi by the time he is twenty one still angekuwa alipo and debt free. Uoni ongezeko la ada ni kum-putt-off a student from poor ground ambaye degree ni kubahatisha tu kupata kazi ya maana in the end.

    Suala la political spectrum wala sito ligusia kwa sana maana tayari kichwa kimesha choka kuandika. Hila ntakupa a short explanation of political view in this country. The issue of left and right politics is dead in England since Blair took office (ndio maana wanasema he was conservative PM under labour), the political parties right now are either 'central left', 'central' and 'right central' no wider in terms of policies they construct. The only difference is the conservative is trying to insist on personal responsibilities which i do side with some of their policies kama hayo mambo ya cha mgonjwa uliyoyagusia and so forth. Lakini lazima uelewa these poeple understand their society formation hivyo cause and effects of their policies they know who exactly would suffer or have to change his thinking. Again ni issue ndefu na nimechoka.
     
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