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Kumbe hata Mabepari huzikimbilia sera za kijamaa mambo yakienda kombo

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Siasa' started by BAK, Sep 30, 2008.

  1. BAK

    BAK JF-Expert Member

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    Bradford & Bingley is nationalised

    Press Association, Monday September 29 2008

    The global credit crisis claimed its latest victims as the Government seized control of ailing mortgage lender Bradford & Bingley.

    The second nationalisation of a UK bank in seven months came alongside a state bail-out of Belgium's Fortis and a takeover of US bank Wachovia by Citigroup.

    The FTSE 100 Index slumped more than 5% - with banking stocks blitzed - as investors also awaited approval for 700 billion US dollar (£387 billion) plans to buy toxic debts from ailing financial institutions in the US.

    B&B's fall into public ownership after more than 150 years of history puts £50 billion - including £41 billion in mortgage loans - on the public balance sheet.

    It follows Northern Rock's nationalisation in February and comes just two weeks after a £12.2 billion rescue takeover of Halifax Bank of Scotland by Lloyds TSB.

    Prime Minister Gordon Brown said the Government had taken "decisive action", but the head of the Financial Services Authority (FSA) warned there could be more turmoil to come.

    "We are not necessarily right at the end of this process," Lord Turner told the BBC.

    B&B was squeezed by the credit crunch hiking its funding costs, and the housing market slowdown casting doubts over its main buy-to-let business.

    The firm has seen bad debts and arrears soar, lost millions on complex mortgage-backed investments, and had its investment status downgraded - making it more expensive to do business.

    While B&B's mortgages are in public ownership, its savings business and branches - with 2.7 million customers and £20 billion in deposits - have been sold to Spain's Santander for £612 million.

    Copyright (c) Press Association Ltd. 2008, All Rights Reserved.
     
  2. BAK

    BAK JF-Expert Member

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    Kweli ubepari ni unyama. Mabepari wenyewe wanazikimbia sera ambazo huzifagilia miaka nenda miaka rudi.
     
  3. Kuhani

    Kuhani JF-Expert Member

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    Sasa kwa nini tumekimbilia nchi za kibepari?
     
  4. BAK

    BAK JF-Expert Member

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    Kuna mazuri na mabaya yake katika nchi za kibepari. Hivi nchi kama Marekani kama ingekuwa inatumia utajiri wake kuhakikisha maisha mazuri kwa wananchi wake unadhani kungekuwa na homeless people Marekani? Unadhani kungekuwa na Warekani wagonjwa ambao hawapatiwi matibabu wanapoumwa kutokana na kutokuwa na life insurance? Unadhani kungekuwa na tofauti ya elimu wanayopata watoto wa matajiri na wale wanaotoka maeneo ya maskini ambazo baadhi ya shule hazina hadhi hata ya kuitwa shule?

    Ndiyo kuna freedom kubwa ya mtu kulipwa mshahara mkubwa kutokana na elimu yako na kupatiwa vitendea kazi lakini pamoja na hayo haitunyimi haki ya kuonyesha kwamba kumbe hata mabepari huzikimbia sera zao. Je, huoni kama kuna undumilakuwili wa nchi za kibepari kukimbilia sera ambazo wamekuwa wakizipigia debe ili zisifuatwe na nchi maskini kwa kupitia vyombo vyao vya WB na IMF?
     
  5. jmushi1

    jmushi1 JF-Expert Member

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    Si ubabe ndugu yangu?
    Na manipulation kumbe ni siasa chafu zinawalinda...Unajuwa tena kukiwa hakuna Taifa lenye kuweza kukuuliza kitu..Wauliza wajepu na Hiroshima na Nagasaki.
    Usoshalisti umekuwa applied wala hii si mara ya kwanza...Kwani hata social services zote chini ya ubepari ni halali?
    Hata kitu simple to kama YMCA na mambo kama food stamps etc etc si ni usoshalisti huo?
    Ubepari ni unyama to the fullest kama ukiwa applied all the way...Ulikuwa ufe na Roosevelt akaja na THE NEW DEAL na FBI ikaanzia hapo kwani wale wote waliokuwa na mwelekeo wa ki soshalisti walinyongwa...Na hapo EDGAR J HOOVER aka RISE...The rest is HISTORY.
    Historia yenyewe pia hujirudia...Kilichowakomboa wamarekani last time ni vita ya pili ya dunia na kuna wale waliokuwa wakifikri kuwa ni vita tena vitakavyowaondoa kwenye dimbwi hilo la cerdit crunch na financial crisis hii iliyoukumba uchumi wa marekani....Tatizo kuna wale waliokataa kuwa vita inaweza isiwe solution..Ofcourse wako right kwani dunia imebadilika sana na sasa zile nchi zilizokuwa down at that time ndizo zinazoongoza uchumi wa dunia...Mchina na Mjapan wanaimiliki marekani kuna wale waliokuwa wakibisha...FREEDOM HATA WAO WANATAKIWA KUIPIGANIA...Kama sisi tu...Kwenye dunia hii ya utandawazi...Mafisadi wamo miongoni mwetu popote pale tulipo na hivyo basi uhuru wetu ni dhidi ya mafisadi wetu na mabwana zao mafisadi wakubwa wa nchi za nje.
     
  6. Kuhani

    Kuhani JF-Expert Member

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    Ahsante.

    Swali moja la ndio au hapana.

    Mazuri na mabaya ya Ubepari kwa ujumla ni bora kuliko mazuri na mabaya ya Ujamaa tulioukimbia ?
     
  7. BAK

    BAK JF-Expert Member

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    Kwa maoni yangu mazuri ya ujamaa ni mengi mno kuliko mazuri ya ubepari. Si unaona Tanzania siku hizi tumekumbatia Ubepari na nchi yetu iko katika njia panda kuliko muda wowote tangu tupate uhuru. Naomba na mimi unijibu maswali yangu niliyoyaweka hapo juu, hapo ndiyo mjadala hunoga. usirushe maswali tuu bila kuyajibu uliyoulizwa.

    Hivi nchi kama Marekani kama ingekuwa inatumia utajiri wake kuhakikisha maisha mazuri kwa wananchi wake unadhani kungekuwa na homeless people Marekani? Unadhani kungekuwa na Warekani wagonjwa ambao hawapatiwi matibabu wanapoumwa kutokana na kutokuwa na Health insurance? Unadhani kungekuwa na tofauti ya elimu wanayopata watoto wa matajiri na wale wanaotoka maeneo ya maskini ambazo baadhi ya shule hazina hadhi hata ya kuitwa shule?
     
  8. jmushi1

    jmushi1 JF-Expert Member

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    Ukishaingiza social services then si pure capitalism...Ila kwenye issue za biashara ni pure capitalism.....Then sasa wameingiza na bailouts..Hapo ubepari umebaki kwenye siasa za kibabe za kimataifa....Hiyo pia imekuwa derived from capitalism kwasababu wana lack baadhi ya resources.
     
  9. Kuhani

    Kuhani JF-Expert Member

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    Nilipitiwa samahani, sikuwa makini kuzingatia kujibu swali lako.

    Hapana, kusingekuwa na homeless people, wala tofauti za nafasi za nyanja za afya au elimu bora kati ya watu wake.

    Lakini kumbuka, iwapo "Marekani ingekuwa inatumia utajiri wake kuhakikisha maisha mazuri kwa wananchi" basi wangekuwa kama Wajamaa. Wao sio Wajamaa. Na hawajidai kwamba ni Wajamaa. Hawautaki Ujamaa. Hawataki kujifanya watahakikisha watu wote wana hali sawa za maisha. Wanataka kuachia huru private institutions kama vile healthcare na educational infrastructures ambazo masikini hawawezi kuzifikia. Hiyo ndio textbook definition ya Ubepari. Wanataka Ubepari. Kwa hiyo unapopima ubora wa mfumo wao wanataka uwapime hivyo hivyo na tofauti kati ya masikini na tajiri. Hawataki kulazimisha watu wote wawe masikini, au wote tajiri, au wote wastani. Itakavyokuwa na iwe. Hilo wanataka ulichukulie hivyo hivyo halafu tulinganishe.

    Sasa kama "mazuri ya ujamaa ni mengi mno kuliko mazuri ya ubepari" kwa nini tumekimbilia kwa mabepari ?

    Sasa kama "tumekumbatia Ubepari na nchi yetu iko katika njia panda" kwa nini useme Ujamaa ni bora zaidi ? Au sielewi ? Na kama nchi yetu iko katika njia panda kwenda kuzuri kwa nini bado tupo tulikokimbilia kwa mabepari ?
     
  10. BAK

    BAK JF-Expert Member

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    Iko njia panda kwa sababu Watanzania wengi hawaridhishwi na Utajiri mkubwa waliokuwa nao watu wachache wakiwemo viongozi ambapo Watanzania wengi wanaishi maisha ya dhiki. Na hapo ukitilia maanani kwamba kati ya 2001 na 2006 dhahabu yenye thamani ya $2.6 billioni imechimbwa Tanzania lakini kama nchi tumeambulia $78 millioni tu. Ndiyo maana nasema ubepari ni unyama na una mazuri machache kuliko ujamaa na ushahidi ni hili la mabepari kukimbia sera zao wenyewe za biashara huru na hata miaka michache ijayo kama hali ya kiuchumi itakuwa nzuri sidhani kama kutakuwa tena na biashara huru bila ya kuhakikisha kunakuwa na regulations ambazo zitahakikisha haya yanayotokea sasa kiuchumi hayatokei tena.

    Sasa kama wamarekani hawautaki ujamaa inakuwaje tena wanaanza kunationalize mashirika binafsi? Serikali ya Marekani sasa hivi inamiliki 80% ya AIG, kulikoni? Si wangeacha tu sera huru za kibiashara zifuate mkondo wake?
     
  11. I

    Interested Observer JF-Expert Member

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    Babu AK,
    Tofautisha evil hapa; siasa ya Ubepari au Ujamaa/komunism huwezi ku-substitute evil/ greedy na political system. Hebu review Siasa ya Ubepari na ya Ujamaa vizuri, hakuna mahali ambapo Ubepari umetetea evil au greed. Wall Street imetokea greed na uzembe wa government.
    Ubepari ni siasa ya asili, binadamu lazima ajilimbikizie mali (kihalali), afanye kazi, awe motivated!
     
  12. Kuhani

    Kuhani JF-Expert Member

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    Ni rescue plan ya dharura. Makampuni yaliyochukuliwa yatabinafsishwa tena. Walipojaribu kuacha "sera huru za kibiashara zifuate mkondo" ilitokea the great depression kipindi cha mwanzo cha karne iliyopita.

    Tunarudi tulipoanzia.

    Kama "ubepari ni unyama na una mazuri machache kuliko ujamaa" kwa nini tumekimbilia nchi za Kibepari ?
     
  13. BAK

    BAK JF-Expert Member

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    Hiyo rescue plan ndiyo ni ya dharura lakini hizo regulations zitakazowekwa kuhakikisha hali hii haitokei tena zitakuwa ni za kudumu. Kama wanajali uchumi wao hawataachia tena maCEO waendeshe mashirika kienyeji (huru) kama ilivyo awali na kusababisha uchumi wa nchi kuporomoka.

    Naona una matatizo binafsi na sera za Nyerere sijui mzee wa watu alikukosea nini. Bado ukiangalia mfumo mzima wa sera za ujamaa na kujitegemea na kulinganisha na sera za kibepari basi utaona sera za kijamaa zina ubinadamu zaidi kuliko sera za kibepari zilizojaa unyama. Kama hutaki kukubali hivyo utajiju. Waambie wabadilishe msemo wao na kusema kwamba sera za biashara huru ni nzuri tu pale ambapo uchumi wa nchi unafanya vizuri lakini ukiwa unafanya vibaya basi ni heri kukimbilia sera za kijamaa. Ubepari ni unyama na kwa mara nyingine tena tumethibitisha hivyo kwa haya yanayotokea sasa duniani katika nyanja za uchumi.
     
  14. Congo

    Congo JF-Expert Member

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    Serikali za Marekani na Uingereza haziokoi haya makampuni kwa kupenda wala nia njema ya serikali. Viongozi wakuu wa serikali hizi ndio wawekezaji wakuu kwenye makampuni haya. Sasa, wakiacha yafe ina maana mitaji yao binafsi itakufa. Wanachokifanya ni kutumia hela za walipakodi kuyaokoa. Ndio maana Baraza la Wawakalishi la Marekani limeyakataa mapendekezo hayo kwa kuwa ni matumizi mabaya ya pesa za walipakodi. Kila mwenye hela nyingi anataka aingie kwenye uongozi ili alinde maslahi yake.
     
  15. Mpita Njia

    Mpita Njia JF-Expert Member

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    Kweli Congo, kuna hila nyingi sana zinazotumiwa na wakubwa wa Marekani katika hili, mengi ya makampuni yanayotakiwa kuokolewa nayamilikiwa na wakubwa, hivyo ni kama kutumia hela ya walipa kodi kujiokoa wao wenyewe
     
  16. M

    Mkandara Verified User

    #16
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    Kuhani,

    Mkuu wangu unajua tena kuna imani mbili hapa za mtaani...
    1. Mtu ni UTU..
    2. Mtu ni fedha!..
    Kwa hiyo unaweza kujua kwa nini tuliukimbia Ujamaa.. Utu bila kitu mfukoni hutamaniki....
     
  17. M

    Mkandara Verified User

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    wakati nchi za Magharibi zinahangaika na Housing market.. nasikia nyuma za Kariakoo sasa hivi zinauzwa USd 1 million na kuendelea!...Hivi hizo za msajili wa majumba huko mjini zitakuwa na thamani gani sasa hivi..
     
  18. I

    Interested Observer JF-Expert Member

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    Mkandara kweli kabisa, mie wala huwa siamini masikio yangu jamaa wanaponambia ati above a million dollar.
     
  19. Idimi

    Idimi JF-Expert Member

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    Nimefurahishwa na mjadala huu!
    Please, believe it! Nyumba zile za kariakoo bei zake zinapaa kwa kasi sana, kwa sababu ni sehemu nzuri sana kibiashara.
    Ndio ubepari wenyewe huo!
     
  20. Idimi

    Idimi JF-Expert Member

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    Nakubaliana nanyi kwamba haya ni matumizi mabaya sana ya rasilimali za umma. Si haki kuwaokoa wazembe wachache waliotumia madaraka vibaya na kusababisha mashirika kukwama kifedha, kwa fedha za umma. Ni kama vile ambavyo watu walikuwa wakipinga sana majeshi ya Marekani kupelekwa Iraki kwenda kulinda maslahi ya akina Dick Cheney, Collin Powell, Bush na Donald Rumsfeld kwa gharama ya damu za Wamarekani.
    It is insane!
     
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