Kinyume na Ulaghai: Muungano wa Tanganyika na Zanzibar uliridhiwa na chombo halali cha Zanzibar!

[Gwalihenzi]

Uhalali wa kutoka kwenye makabrasha ya CIA? tuoneshe uhalali wa kutoka Serikali ya Zanzibar na Tanganyika.

Kama hauna, kaa kimya. Unajuwa sana kuwa huu ni muungano ulioshadidiwa na Nyerere kwa sababu ya kueneza Ukatoliki Zanzibar.

Wewe kama hujui historia kaa kimya, ukatoliki uliingia visiwani Zanzibar miaka ya 1870!

 

[mzaire]

msimamo wa mwanakijiji ni mpate nchi yenu! Acha ujinga na porojo

Wacha upuuzi wako huo!!! Kijiji ana ubavu gani wa kututetea ? kwanza aitafute Tanganyika angalau wapate hicho kajiutaifa wa Kitanganyika ndio uifikirie Zenji.

Sisi tutajitetea wenyewe na hizo nongo zako za akili !!! Nenda bafuni ukazisugue ucituekee uvundo hapa.

 

[Pascal Mayalla]

Pasco ulitaka nani aratify kama siyo Baraza la Mapinduzi?

Mkuu Mzee Mwanakijiji, ni kweli wenye jukumu la ku ratify ni BLM, nilichokuuliza, kwa vile CIA wameandika hivi,

Jee huu ndio uthibitisho kuwa BLM wakiratify muungano?. Hao watu wako unaowaaminia, jee hawakuwa na namna yoyote ya kujua kama muungano ulikuwa ratified or not zaidi ya ile kauli ya Karume?!.
Jee ratification hufanywa kwa kauli tuu bila maandishi?!.

Hapa nakusisitizia tena na tena Mzee Mwanakijiji, Karume alisema tuu kwa kauli kuwa muungano umeridhiwa, lakini hakukufanyika process yoyote kuuridhia!. Endelea kuwaaminia hao Wamarekani, mimi nawaaminia waliokuwepo na wakaandika kuwa Muungano haukuridhiwa Zanzibar.

Nilipojiunga tuu jf ile 1998, niliandika kuhusu mhadhara wa Shivji kuhusu "The Legal Foundations of Union btn Tanganyika and Zanzibar" alisema haukuwa ratified any where!.

 

[Mzee Mwanakijiji]

Mkuu Mzee Mwanakijiji, ni kweli wenye jukumu la ku ratify ni BLM, nilichokuuliza, kwa vile CIA wameandika hivi,

Jee huu ndio uthibitisho kuwa BLM wakiratify muungano?. Hao watu wako unaowaaminia, jee hawakuwa na namna yoyote ya kujua kama muungano ulikuwa ratified or not zaidi ya ile kauli ya Karume?!.
Jee ratification hufanywa kwa kauli tuu bila maandishi?!.

Hapa nakusisitizia tena na tena Mzee Mwanakijiji, Karume alisema tuu kwa kauli kuwa muungano umeridhiwa, lakini hakukufanyika process yoyote kuuridhia!. Endelea kuwaaminia hao Wamarekani, mimi nawaaminia waliokuwepo na wakaandika kuwa Muungano haukuridhiwa Zanzibar.

Nilipojiunga tuu jf ile 1998, niliandika kuhusu mhadhara wa Shivji kuhusu "The Legal Foundations of Union btn Tanganyika and Zanzibar" alisema haukuwa ratified any where!.

umewahi kuuliza BLM kama waliratify? au na wewe unaamini watu wanasema haukuwa ratified? Prof Haroub Othman aliandika hivi kwenye Union of Tanganyika and Zanzibar: African initiative or Cold War rivarly? (Msisitizo wote wa italiki na mkazo wa rangi ni wangu)

Under both the 1962 Republic of Tanganyika Constitution and the Zanzibar Presidential Decree No.5 quoted above, the two Presidents had the powers to enter into international agreements on behalf of their governments. What is also important is that the Union Agreement was ratified by both the Tanganyika Parliament and the Zanzibar Revolutionary Council. Contrary to what some writers have said, the Nyalali Commission was satisfied that the Revolutionary Council met to ratify the ‘Articles of Union'. Both Abdulrahman Babu and Khamis Abdallah Ameir, the two former Umma Party leaders who were in the Revolutionary Council at the time, have confirmed that the matter was discussed in the Council, and while there were reservations on the part of some members, these were ‘quashed' by Abdallah Kassim Hanga who made an emotional intervention to support the Union.

Sasa haya siyo maneno ya Wamarekani ni ya Marehemu Prof. Haroub Othman, Mzanzibari na msomi aliyebobea tu aliyeheshimika nchini. Hoja yako kuwa ati Muungano haukuwa ratified haina msingi wa historia wala ukweli.

Ndivyo Prof. Othman akahitimisha?

Once the ‘Articles of Union' have been ratified by the two legislative bodies in Tanganyika and Zanzibar, there was no further requirement in law to make them enforceable. The question of referendum would not have arisen because under the Commonwealth legal tradition, in which the two countries were brought up, the notion of a referendum was unknown. The referendum was introduced as a legal requirement under British law in the 1970s during the heated debate in the United Kingdom on the question of its entry into the European Economic Community. To have also expected the Zanzibar revolutionary government to call a referendum on the Union, four months after it came into power through unconstitutional means, was like expecting the French revolutionaries of 1789 to have invited King Louis XVI for dinner after they had overthrown him. Should ASP have conducted a referendum to ask Zanzibaris whether or not to stage a revolution? In law, therefore, the Union Agreement, as both Prof Issa Shivji and Dr Kabudi have pointed out, is valid.

 

[kwamwewe]

umewahi kuuliza blm kama waliratify? Au na wewe unaamini watu wanasema haukuwa ratified? Prof haroub othman aliandika hivi kwenye union of tanganyika and zanzibar: African initiative or cold war rivarly? (msisitizo wote wa italiki na mkazo wa rangi ni wangu)





sasa haya siyo maneno ya wamarekani ni ya marehemu prof. Haroub othman, mzanzibari na msomi aliyebobea tu aliyeheshimika nchini. Hoja yako kuwa ati muungano haukuwa ratified haina msingi wa historia wala ukweli.

Ndivyo prof. Othman akahitimisha?

yupi mwenye kujua zaidi , huyo marehemu pr. Harub au katibu mkuu wa baraza la mapinduzi wa wakati ule ambaye bado yuhai, amesema si mara moja wala mbili kuwa muungano huu haukuwa ratified na baraza la mapinduzi wala hakuna records zozote zinazoonyesha kuwa ulikuwa ratified

haya hapa mahojiano na huyo Katibu mkuu wa BLM la wakati huo

http://hakinaumma.wordpress.com/2011/12/06/matunda-ya-muungano-ni-mizengwe-na-migogoro/

 

[kalamata]

Kama ningekuwa mmilki wa Jamii forum ningetaka kila mtu ajiunge kwa jina lake kama ailivyofanya Mechard Rwizile na Pasco. Ni vizuri watu wakafahamika kwa majina yao na sura halisi ili thamani ya michango yao iongezeke. Wachangiaji wengi wanapotosha wenzao, wanasema uongo, wanaeneza chuki na wanatetea maslahi binafsi. Na wakati mwingine wanaeneza ujinga tu kwa kuleta hoja zisizo na mashiko. Kwani kanisa la kwanza Zanzibar lilijengwa na Nyerere?.

Kinachotakiwa hapa ni kueleza sababu za kiuchumi na kijamii za kuvunja muungano. Nina uhakika wa kutosha wazanzibar wasiotaka kutawalia na Sultan wa Oman hawatakuwa salama muungano ukivunjika, nina uhakika wa Zanzibar wasiokuwa wakristu hawatakuwa salama muungano ukivunjika, nina uhakika wanzibar wanaotaka muungano hawatakuwa salama muungano ukivunjika. Nusu ya umaskini tulionao haitapungua kwa kuvunjika Muungano. Baya zaidi, sisi tunaoshabikia kuvunjika kwa Muungano hatutakuwepo miaka 100 ijayo. Kwanini tufanye maamuzi kwa jaziba? kwa nini tufanye mambo kwa ubinafsi wetu?

Hakuna atakaye fadhaika kwa kulinda, kutetea na kuimarisha muungano hata miaka 200 ijayo. Tupambane na ufisadi, uongo, ubinafsi na ukandamizaji wa aina yeyote kwa kila binadamu. Awe mke wako, mtoto wako, jirani yako,mkristu, mwislam na asiye na dini. Kubwa tudumishe ubinadamu kwa gharama yeyote.

....Thanks,kwa maoni yako nimefarijika kusoma hii,once again thanks vry much.

 

[Gracious]

Hivi,How is Tanganyika benefiting from Zanzibar? Mi naona hakuna kitu.Waachwe tu hawa wakauane huko.

 

[mkurugenz]

"tunaitana wazanzibari na watanganyika kwa sababu tuko ndani ya muungano,nje ya muungano tutaitana kwa dini na makabila yetu.....a" j.k nyerere. binafsi hoja ya kuvunja muungano si ya msing sana la msingi ni namna ya kuufanya muungano wetu uwe wa kisasa,wenye tija na uwioano

 

[Bob G]

Madai ya wanzanzibari ni halali, wanahaki ya kuamua nmna nchi yao iwe, waache wananchi waamue nini wanataka na si viongozi wazuie watu wasihoji MUUNGANO

 

[blea]

Kama ningekuwa mmilki wa Jamii forum ningetaka kila mtu ajiunge kwa jina lake kama ailivyofanya Mechard Rwizile na Pasco. Ni vizuri watu wakafahamika kwa majina yao na sura halisi ili thamani ya michango yao iongezeke. Wachangiaji wengi wanapotosha wenzao, wanasema uongo, wanaeneza chuki na wanatetea maslahi binafsi. Na wakati mwingine wanaeneza ujinga tu kwa kuleta hoja zisizo na mashiko. Kwani kanisa la kwanza Zanzibar lilijengwa na Nyerere?.
Kinachotakiwa hapa ni kueleza sababu za kiuchumi na kijamii za kuvunja muungano. Nina uhakika wa kutosha wazanzibar wasiotaka kutawalia na Sultan wa Oman hawatakuwa salama muungano ukivunjika, nina uhakika wa Zanzibar wasiokuwa wakristu hawatakuwa salama muungano ukivunjika, nina uhakika wanzibar wanaotaka muungano hawatakuwa salama muungano ukivunjika. Nusu ya umaskini tulionao haitapungua kwa kuvunjika Muungano. Baya zaidi, sisi tunaoshabikia kuvunjika kwa Muungano hatutakuwepo miaka 100 ijayo. Kwanini tufanye maamuzi kwa jaziba? kwa nini tufanye mambo kwa ubinafsi wetu?

Hakuna atakaye fadhaika kwa kulinda, kutetea na kuimarisha muungano hata miaka 200 ijayo. Tupambane na ufisadi, uongo, ubinafsi na ukandamizaji wa aina yeyote kwa kila binadamu. Awe mke wako, mtoto wako, jirani yako,mkristu, mwislam na asiye na dini. Kubwa tudumishe ubinadamu kwa gharama yeyote.

Na tufanye kazi kwa bidii tuwe na moyo wa uzalendo tuipende TANZANIA YETU.Tuache chuki za kidini kikabila na kikanda ili tuijenge TANZANIA YETU kwa faida yetu wenyewe na vizazi vyetu. Tuache kulalama pasipo sababu za msingi na tuachane na propoganda za kijinga za UZANZIBARI NA UTANGANYIKA havitusaidii kuuondoa huu umaskini tulio nao

 

[kwamwewe]

Na tufanye kazi kwa bidii tuwe na moyo wa uzalendo tuipende TANZANIA YETU.Tuache chuki za kidini kikabila na kikanda ili tuijenge TANZANIA YETU kwa faida yetu wenyewe na vizazi vyetu. Tuache kulalama pasipo sababu za msingi na tuachane na propoganda za kijinga za UZANZIBARI NA UTANGANYIKA havitusaidii kuuondoa huu umaskini tulio nao

tunahitaji miaka mingapi zaidi ???? another 50 yrs , Sorry Charlie

 

[ngwenda ngulya]

Mwenye akili hatakiwi kubwabwaja kwani waasisi hawakua wajinga kufikia pale walipofikia na kikubwa kwa sasa nikufuata njia ile ile waliyopitia kufikia muungano na si vinginevyo maana nchi inaongozwa kwa sheria.

 

[Mzee Mwanakijiji]

yupi mwenye kujua zaidi , huyo marehemu pr. Harub au katibu mkuu wa baraza la mapinduzi wa wakati ule ambaye bado yuhai, amesema si mara moja wala mbili kuwa muungano huu haukuwa ratified na baraza la mapinduzi wala hakuna records zozote zinazoonyesha kuwa ulikuwa ratified

haya hapa mahojiano na huyo Katibu mkuu wa BLM la wakati huo

Matunda ya Muungano; ni mizengwe na migogoro « Haki Sawa kwa Wote

Nimemsoma huyo vizuri sana lakini mtu yeyote makini anaweza kuona mashimo - maswali ambayo hakuulizwa.

 

[Pascal Mayalla]

umewahi kuuliza BLM kama waliratify? au na wewe unaamini watu wanasema haukuwa ratified? Prof Haroub Othman aliandika hivi kwenye Union of Tanganyika and Zanzibar: African initiative or Cold War rivarly? (Msisitizo wote wa italiki na mkazo wa rangi ni wangu)

Sasa haya siyo maneno ya Wamarekani ni ya Marehemu Prof. Haroub Othman, Mzanzibari na msomi aliyebobea tu aliyeheshimika nchini. Hoja yako kuwa ati Muungano haukuwa ratified haina msingi wa historia wala ukweli.

Ndivyo Prof. Othman akahitimisha?

Mzee Mwanakijiji, kesho nitamalizia mada yako kwa hoja za ratification. Naendelea kukusisitizia "No ratification was done in Zanzibar", Ratification ilifanywa bara tuu na aliyedraft akaedit heading na kuprint ratification ya Zanzibar na kusauniwa huku huku bara, Karume akapewa akaiwasilisha as if imefanywa Zanzibar!. Yaani hiyo document ilikuwa kanyabwoya kuonyesha Zanzibar wali ratify. Kesho utaujua ukweli, mpaka wamarekani wako walipigwa changa la macho na wewe ukapofushwa nao!.

Nimemsoma Prof. Haroub Othman, huyu pia alikuwa mwalimu wangu sambamba na Shivji, naheshimu mchango wake, angekuwa hai ningemuuliza ile document ya ratification ya Zanzibar ambayo Karume aliiwasilisha bungeni huku bara, aliitoa wapi?. Mbona hakuiwasilisha hata huko BLM?. Mbona Zanzibar AG hakushirikishwa?. Nitafurahi kuelimishwa na wewe kuhusu ratification of international treaties kwa kauli tuu!. Kama unavyoweza kumpa mtu land kwa kauli tuu na kiukweli land ika change hands bila maandishi!.

 

[Mzee Mwanakijiji]

Mzee Mwanakijiji, kesho nitamalizia mada yako kwa hoja za ratification. Naendelea kukusisitizia "No ratification was done in Zanzibar", Ratification ilifanywa bara tuu na aliyedraft akaedit heading na kuprint ratification ya Zanzibar na kusauniwa huku huku bara, Karume akapewa akaiwasilisha as if imefanywa Zanzibar!.

what?? sijui kama naelewa hoja yako maana inaingia kwenye matatizo zaidi! Tatizo lako ni kuwa ratification haikufanyika "IN" Zanzibar na siyo kwamba haikufanywa na chombo halali cha Wazanzibari? Kwamba, inaweza kuwa ilifanywa "Bara" na Wazanzibari lakini kwa vile haikufanyika "IN" Zanzibar basi ratification haikuwa sahihi? Au unachosema ni kuwa Zanzibar hawakuratify kabisa articles za union ili Muungano uwe kamili?

 

[nderingosha]

@ Mwanakijiji.....sorry i didn't offer my take on the ratification matter here..(i did it in the Pasco's thread instead)...My important query to you is....why are you basing your arguments relying on the classified CIA docs??....I ask this because...after reading your attached docs above....i find that the ratification confirmation is based on hearsay (a radio announcement)and talks between Karume and Babu at that time....
After having read some material on the matter(refer my take in the Pasco's thread)...i found that (based on discussions/quotes from academicians/politicians/lawyers/journalists):

• There is no legal evidence (e.g a notice from the gazette) showing the articles of union ratification from the zanzibar side
• However, the Articles of Union are presumed to have been ratified on a corresponding statute called the Union of Zanzibar and Tanganyika Law....This was done solely to rule out any public outcry/queries from the zanzibaris..who might demand about the legality of the matter....This is just my take...

 

[blea]

tunahitaji miaka mingapi zaidi ???? another 50 yrs , Sorry Charlie

You cant eat elephant by single bite.Anza leo kufanya kazi kwa bidii na mafanikio utayaona tu. Usikate tamaa kisa ufisadi na ulegevu wa viongozi wetu wa leo PLAY YUOR PART

 

[kwamwewe]

you cant eat elephant by single bite.anza leo kufanya kazi kwa bidii na mafanikio utayaona tu. Usikate tamaa kisa ufisadi na ulegevu wa viongozi wetu wa leo play yuor part

elephant is no more. Nyerere has killed it and it was destroyed by him . Let zanzibaris do what they like

they dont eat elephants they eat fish

 

[blea]

elephant is no more. Nyerere has killed it and it was destroyed by him . Let zanzibaris do what they like

they dont eat elephants they eat fish

AMINA na iwe hivyo mkuu

 

[mgen]

Wacha upuuzi wako huo!!! Kijiji ana ubavu gani wa kututetea ? kwanza aitafute Tanganyika angalau wapate hicho kajiutaifa wa Kitanganyika ndio uifikirie Zenji.

Sisi tutajitetea wenyewe na hizo nongo zako za akili !!! Nenda bafuni ukazisugue ucituekee uvundo hapa.

Daah! Nimeamini! Hata shoga ukimwambia tabia hiyo ya ushoga sio nzuri, ataona nongwa!