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ICC Prosecutor threatens Kenya with sanctions

Discussion in 'Kenyan News and Politics' started by Kenyan, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. K

    Kenyan JF-Expert Member

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    Oct 27, 2012
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    BY WALTER MENYA | The Star | October 27, 2012

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    International Criminal Court prosecutor Fatou Bensouda yesterday threatened sanctions against the government if it fails to cooperate. Bensouda said her office expects to receive all the information she needs by December, failure to which she will ask the court to impose sanctions on Kenya.

    “In both meetings with President Kibaki and Prime Minister Odinga as well as with the Cabinet sub-committee, I stressed that time is of the essence given that our final list of evidence is due on January 9, 2013. The submission of this evidence is essential for giving the defence a fair trial,” Bensouda said.

    “I expressed my strong desire to receive all the requested information by the end of November to en- able me to comply with my obligations to the defence. I was assured by the committee that they will take appropriate steps to ensure that I am provided with the information without delays.”

    In addition, Bensouda said police and civil servants who had hesitated in giving evidence will be interviewed as she seeks to build a water-tight case against the 2007-08 post-election violence suspects — Uhuru Kenyatta, William Ruto, Francis Muthaura and Joshua Sang.

    Bensouda has since she arrived on Monday held talks with President Kibaki and PM Raila Odinga on Tuesday, the cabinet sub-committee that deals with ICC matters, the Chief Justice, Director of Public Prosecution, Director of Witness Protection and Commissioner of Police.

    Other top government officials she met were the NSIS director general Michael Gichangi, members of the diplomatic community stationed in the country and civil society groups.

    Yesterday she visited an IDP camp in Nakuru. Speaking after her visit, Bensouda said she had conveyed her office’s concerns to President Kibaki and PM Raila regarding delays in the government’s response to a number of requests by the Office of the Prosecutor.

    “They assured me of their willingness to ensure timely and effective execution of the pending requests. They instructed the Attorney-General and the Cabinet Sub-Committee to facilitate expeditious responses to my Office’s requests,” she said.

    The prosecutor wants the government to provide her office with the financial and bank statements of the suspects, their medical records and some recordings from from the Communication Commission of Kenya.

    Bensouda will today travel to Eldoret to visit the Kiambaa church, where 17 people were burnt to death in the 2007-08 post-election violence. They were among scores who had sought refuge at the church to escape the violence.
     
  2. WA-UKENYENGE

    WA-UKENYENGE JF-Expert Member

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    She has to show her strength now, failure to this then the ICC will be just like a district court. Anyway, I personally agree with her plan to impose sanctions to kenyan government if at all no response/request staff are not submitted by the scheduled clock.
     
  3. m

    mwathai Senior Member

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    something is strange about this case. Normally, one collects evidence and the prosecutes. This is a case where one prosecutes and then goes to search for evidence!! Is this a serious case? The accused are not daft, they were senior government officials who know their way round. The documents they are asking for-assuming that they exists in reality- will by now have been destroyed, tampered with or even hidden. For instance, if ICC did not have documentary evidence when they accused UK of dishing out Shs 30 m, do they expect to get it now? Can any bank realistically release its clients activities. What about the confidentiality rule?
    Can the ICC or indeed the Kenyan legal system, realistically force any Kenyan bank to release such account records? Or are they looking to do a Baraza- on realising that she has fallen, she had to go the long route of blaming the court for her decision to resign? Just looking for a fall guy to bash?
    Even the IDPs in eldoret questioned the credibility of her witnesses. That is a serious issue since the accused person could use such sentiments, coupled with lack of certain evidence to destroy the case. In my view this case is a dead duck

    .
     
  4. m

    mkenya1987 Member

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    let her threaten its not like it will make much of a difference look at Zimbabwe after western nations put sanctions on it for a while their economy tanked but investment from Asia made their economy rebound its now at 9.3% GDP growth. when these western bastards realized this they decided to remove their sanctions as it was counter productive, they realized that sanctions were making them loose allies. not that i like mugabe i think he is a rotten twat but sanctions against government always hurt the citizens never the persons it is intended for, besides i hate when governments become subjects to foreign institutions as sovereignty is challenged . Non of the ICC suspects has said that they will not cooperate they will have to carry their own cross. its not up to the Kenyan government to do ICC investigations for them they should just concentrate on their prosecutions rather than giving lectures to a sovereign government.
     
  5. R

    Rtrd. Psychologist New Member

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    Nov 3, 2012
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    I'm sorry for being against you mwathai. There's nothing strange on this case as you've said, this is because sometimes culprits can be prosecuted and in the course of doing the same, collection of evidence continues. The second thing you talked about is "the Confidentiality Rule", what I want to say from this is, such a Rule is not absolute, it can be enterfered as long as it for the sole purpose of serving the end of justice. Thanks.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2016
  6. m

    mwathai Senior Member

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    Thanks for your viewpoint. You need not be sorry for holding an opposing view. Your viewpoint makes sense -in theory.
    My experience as an investigative journalist is: "you put the cart before the horse at your own peril." That experience informed my position.It still does. My experience as a business reporter also tells me a bank that reveals it client's account details to third parties could definitely be headed for the closure.
    ICC with all its resources and connections should have avoided putting the Cart before the Horse." knowing the kind of people it is dealing with. The kind that spring up new evidence that can easily derail the case.
     
  7. chash

    chash JF-Expert Member

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    Nov 4, 2012
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    I have some extremely disheartening email photos of PEV in Kenya that a friend sent to me. There is one of a dead woman whose neck has been sliced and her baby is seated by her side crying as the blood flows. I showed my wife the photo and she started to cry. There is another photo of about ten people who are totally burned in a room. They look like carvings made from charcoal and are in different positions of agony. They are said to be members of one family including a man, his two wives and children in Naivasha. I do not know about children burnt in a church. People suspected of instigating all these acts are heroes in Kenya today.This is like spitting on God to his face. Lets wait and see the results in due course.
     
  8. Edzeame

    Edzeame Senior Member

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    =>Rtrd phsycho. Self serving justice and justice are two different forms and unidentical whereby one needs to distinguish between prosecution run through a political process and that of a judicial proccess.

    I tell you the difference between the two. One, self-serving justice (political process) assumes the convicted is guilty until proven innocent, the other (judicial process) assumes one is innocent until proven guilty.

    Confidentiality rule clause;
    A lawyer shall not reveal information relating to the representation of a client unless the client gives informed consent; is this included in the kangaroo's rome statutes?
     
  9. m

    mwathai Senior Member

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    The pain of the PEV murders is raw among many kenyans and they want the culprits brought to book and to face justice. What we are challenging is not the fact that some one should be held accountable for their actions. The fear is the investigation looks shoddy.It does not have concrete evidence to sustain the charges. On her recent visit to kenya the ICC prosecutor was told by the victims and I quote " we've not seen your investigators here. Yet we are the victims. We therefore doubt the credibility of your witnesses"
    Does that sound like a case firmly standing on any sustainable evidence? We worry that ICC could help the culprits in this CASE TO GO SCOT FREE
     
  10. simplemind

    simplemind JF-Expert Member

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    Ina maana Uhuru Ruto alliance now very probable is a poisoned chalise for Kenya?
     
  11. chash

    chash JF-Expert Member

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    Kenya has tried through thick and thin to halt the ICC cases, to the point of seeing the ICC judges and investigations as incompetent yet failing to do anything locally. Do not forget that the ICC cases were initiated by Kenyan organisations and all evidence and witnesses were collected by Kenyans. The Kenyan president comes short of endorsing some ICC suspects. The seeds that Kenya is sowing are seeds of destruction and a nation that may one day cease to exist due to internal strife.
     
  12. m

    mwathai Senior Member

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    Before you quote your assumed sources, remember that we Kenyans lived through the experience, we are the experts and our misgivings about any goings on regarding the ICC matter should be treated with some weight. Perhaps you should ask why Kenyans tolerate the alleged ICC culprits. Do we know something others do not know? Whether kenyans elect the culprits or not, the cases will continue. That is what we want,for that is where the truth will be laid bare.
     
  13. livefire

    livefire JF-Expert Member

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    what we are not being told is that once the culprits are elected they will no longer appear at The Hague.

    Being at the centre of the madness in Nakuru, kaptembwa, ronda, lake view and other slum like surburbs as an overseer; take it from me......whoever is tolerant to ICC suspects are but.........nothing to say, feel disturbed... Smack that to the common mwananchi and it evokes a passion and anger no words can define. What chash is saying was witnessed by GoK, specifically military personnel. At one point military trucks were used to ferry bodies from the streets, or we forget dat? We also forget the morgues in Nakuru were overpiled with bodies only that the press never released the info? Before you say "tolerate" be keen to rem some of those who were in the vicinities of the troubled hotspots still cry for justice. Those who lost familiy members and i mean the poor wanjiku, oduor, ngetich, and wokolis of Kenya that fought a senseless war. Effin bitter.

    However, am ever greatful to Lanet barracks, specifically 3KR, AFTC and 81 for their resolute and timely action otherwise we wouldnt have Nakuru as we know it. this is the truth.

    What happened in Naivasha? Are u pretending u never leaved in Kenya? it is with such bitterness i will vote for anyone...autside the "culprits" if what transpired is anything to go by and true.....who owns Molo line company?.....dah......nshachoka. i hope Bensouda did her job well.

    Never again should Kenyans raise an arrow, a panga or anything else against a fellow citizen. And these guys should go clean up their names first if not responsible as alleged.

    This is a very uncharismatic livefire....may elections pass soon.lol
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2016
  14. chash

    chash JF-Expert Member

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    The big tribes of Kenya are destroying the nation through senseless tribalism. If someone is a suspect for even lesser crimes they should first clear their names before being allowed to go for any elective posts. This is common sense. Kenya should not make Africans to look like savages who have no brain. It's a disgrace for Africa and can not augur well for the future of East Africa community. I do not see how any country would wish to integrate with a country that does not value integrity let alone the law. This kind of reasoning is bound to spill over to other countries and is a time bomb for the integration. The Kenyan president can not even endorse his own assistant to run for president because he is not from his own tribe. Wacheni siasa za aibu. You are a disgrace to the EAC.
     
  15. m

    mwathai Senior Member

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    The cardinal principle of the law is one is innocent until proven guilty. In this case we have condemned people without trial. The Americans have done it and so have the the Europeans. That is savagery. The court has its work and it must be allowed to do it without meddling by legal and political Utingos(Manambas in Kenya)
     
  16. Ab-Titchaz

    Ab-Titchaz Content Manager Staff Member

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    I believe you are twisting facts by saying people have already condemned the key suspects at the Hague. What people
    are saying ni kwamba waende Hague wakajitetee huko mahakamani. It is them who started those so called 'Peace rallies'
    whereby they went around the country pouring all kinds of vitriol to Raila as if tis Raila who took them to The Hague.

    Was it not the Uhuruto sycophants that kept saying "Dont be Vague, go to Hague"?...sasa mbona leo hii
    wanaanza kuhaha running around East Africa wanting the cases to be adjudicated locally...where they have the
    clout to nfluence judicial matters?

    Watu wamechanuka aisee!
     
  17. m

    mwathai Senior Member

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    They all know that. So perhaps your call for them to go to clear their names at the Hague is not necessary. They know they must and they will. Perhaps we can save our breathe. The issue at hand is not whether those guys will go to hague, but whether hague investigated the alleged crimes concretely so that it doe not eat the humble pie. My fear is the court does not sound confident with their evidence hence their threats of international sanctions. I have said before and I say again that the ICC may not have the concrete evidence to convict these guys.And that will be a disaster for the court and some fellows here and elsewhere. By the time the matter is over those characters will probably have lost power and therefore vulnerable to legal suits.
    As for you my condolences because your commend of the queen's language is extremely limited.
     
  18. M

    Mwembetayari JF-Expert Member

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    It is advisable for you to review your grammar before mocking anyone else. Your flowing statements defy grammar, syntax and are devoid of logic. I implore you to consider punctuating your sentences, avoiding faulty parallelism, superfluous commas, misplaced-dangling-modifiers and the numerous apostrophe errors you repeatedly make.

    The talking points you use are getting old. You would like us to believe that you all the information and with that you dismiss the ICC. It is well known Uhuru funded the militia that killed hundreds of Kenyans and he must face the law.

    You are driven by tribal allegiances and it is obvious you will defend Uhuru to the grave. Come clean and defended that tribal position instead of the incoherent argument that you front.
     
  19. platonist

    platonist Member

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    mwathai is actually right to a huge percentage; because in law it is always the evidences that matter. So all this repeatitive crowing about ICC and Uhuru, is an indicator that the ICC do not want to rely on material evidences, but would rather fly indigents to the Netherlands to educate them with degrees and free accommodation free food in readiness 2013.

    ICC's priority was not to prosecute as witnessed during the pre-hearing, because thereafter is when they could have followed to know UHURU and Ruto's wealth declarations. After reading that Uhuruto have a strong following, then they decide to fly all the way to Nairobi then using state resources. As at now, it is a grace to grass scenario for ODM and other orphans within the bandwagon. It is a distasteful thing to lose popular support especially when one is used to it. Agreeing to sacrifice and throw in the towel when its required after defeat is an ardous proposal for a party whose remaing insiders are very green to politics. Raila has been left to scrap throughout the country for party members and a running mate. The party has sank to a desperate point that it will decide to forge an alliance with wiper Strongman Kalonzo who sent his probing feelers via muthama to try and secure a quick deal to avoid being branded as hitting political oblivion. It is imminent that WDM and ODM is set for a merger. However there still remains for people curiosity, a quest to find out if the two will successfuly sell their agenda to Kenyans without the usual wrangles and hegemony associated with Raila's phsycophants within ODM.
     
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  20. Ab-Titchaz

    Ab-Titchaz Content Manager Staff Member

    #20
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    You are so petty I will let you be.
     
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