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Hapo Mwanzo Palikuwa Na Nini?!...science Vs divinity

Discussion in 'Habari na Hoja mchanganyiko' started by Steve Dii, Mar 27, 2008.

  1. Steve Dii

    Steve Dii JF-Expert Member

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    Habari zenu?!


    "Hapo mwanzo palikuwa na nini"
    ni swali ambalo naona tumekumbana nalo toka tukiwa shule za chekechea. Na hii leo nimeamua kuliibua hapa JF, kunradhi kama litawaboa!

    Haya sasa, kwa elimu yote uliyokusanya na nasaha mbalimbali ulizokutana nazo maishani toka ujiulize kwa mara ya kwanza; sasa je umeshapata jibu la swali hili?

    Ndugu, naomba kama utachangia uwe huru kujibu jinsi upendavyo. Lakini pia kama utapenda unaweza kuingiza nasaha zako kwenye maswala yafuatayo katika kujibu:

    ---uelewa wako kuhusiana na ulimwengu/galaxy, yaani cosmic system.

    ---uelewa wako kuhusiana na evolution/parallel evolution of living organisms.

    ---uelewa wako kuhusiana na theory za continental drift.

    ---uelewa wako kuhusiana na maandishi matakatifu, Quran, Bible etc kuhusu kuumbika kwa ulimwengu.

    ---uelewa wako kuhusina na ahera/jehanamu (eternal flame).

    ---uelewa wako kuhusiana na mbingu na nchi kifizikia na tofauti au wiano zake kiimani/dini.

    ---uelewa wako kuhusiana na 'reincarnation'

    ---uelewa wako kuhuisiana na kuwepo kwa dinosaurs na kutoweka kwao.

    ---uelewa wako wa umri wa ulimwengu, big bang theory na antimatter.

    ---n.k.7

    Natanguliza shukrani zangu.

    SteveD.
     
  2. Pundit

    Pundit JF-Expert Member

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    Steve,

    Itabidi ueleze mwanzo in terms zipi, kwa sababu kuna mwanzo baada ya big bang halafu kuna huko ambako sayansi haiwezi hata kukuelezea kwa sababu time and space kama tunavyoijua imeanzia kwenye big bang.Na kuna point ya "singularity" inafikiwa kwenye big bang ambapo kila theory ya physics tuijuayo inavunjika.

    Ni kwa sababu hii Wakatoliki wame i endorse theory ya big bang, kwa kusema kuwa limitation ya human knowledge inaonyesha mkono wa mungu pale katika singularity.I personally beg to differ.

    The one good thing I like about Science is its honesty. Scientist acknowledge that the Question is not an easy one to say the least.the Nobel Laureate Steven Weinberg acknowledges this in his bestseller science/cosmogony pop bestseller "The First Three Minutes"

    Kwa hiyo at least Science is honest about it, we don't know, we are studying concepts za Multiverse (Leonard Susskind "The Cosmic Landscape: String Theory and the Illusion of Intelligent Design") and other theories such as M Theory to explore the very nature and fabric of space-time continuum.

    Science does not claim to know all the answers but will take all questions.

    Divinity on the other hand, at least as professed by Judeo Christian traditions claims to know all the answers but would not take any probing questions.
     
  3. Steve Dii

    Steve Dii JF-Expert Member

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    Good point Pundit, thanks!

    Ok, with earnest, don't you see that the two (science and divinity) sometimes resort to same tactics?! i.e. resort to forcefeeding believers,(call them trusters in science) with unproven, unlogical or simply unverifiable things... eg, we see in Bible the script that ' hapo mwanzo palikuwa na neno' and in the samelight, science goes ahead to provoke similar reaction to its trusters, when it talks unverifiably of quantum physics and the unlikely nature of Helium and Hidrogen exploding on year one of the scientific genesis to form the entire universe with its clone 'time'...
    ...There you go, in my opinion what I see here is science being turned into hypothetical doctrine. Pundit, should I place the two in same basket on this case?


    SteveD.
     
  4. Moshe Dayan

    Moshe Dayan JF-Expert Member

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    ya kaizari mpe kaizari na ya mungu mpe mungu!
     
  5. Steve Dii

    Steve Dii JF-Expert Member

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    Ahsante moshe dayani, je hapo mwanzo palikuwa na nini? (unaweza kunijibu ki-kaizari au Ki-Mungu). Shukrani.


    SteveD.
     
  6. N

    Ngereja JF-Expert Member

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    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep;and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of waters. Genesis 2:1-2.

    You can continue reading the whole of Genesis one on creation.

    To know in depth some of these issues, i suggest you find this information on the following website http://www.thinairevent.com

    http://www.itiswritten.com/store/products/out_thin_air_2_disc_dvd_set

    by Shawn Boonstra

    The creation/evolution debate has been raging for decades, and a number of fundamental issues lie at its core—some of the biggest questions in the universe:

    • Does God exist?
    • Where do human beings come from?
    • What story does the fossil record tell?
    • What is the meaning of life?

    In this two-disc DVD set, Pastor Boonstra and biologist Timothy Standish, Ph.D., use the Bible and scientific studies to explore these important questions and their meaning for everyday life. These four programs take a unique approach to the topic—rather than simply defending creation, they tackle Darwin’s claims head-on to reveal that life does have meaning and purpose.

    Included in this DVD set:

    1. Four presentations by Pastor Boonstra:
    * The Big Question — Ancient writings tell the story of an omnipotent God who brought this universe into existence. Does He really exist?
    * The Hidden History of the Human Race — Evidence seems to suggest that our ancient past might be different than what we’ve believed for generations. Is it true?
    * Secrets in Stone — The more we dig into the earth, the more surprises we find. What happened to this planet in the distant past?
    * Out of Thin Air — Amazingly, there are reliable answers to the most important questions ever asked by human beings. Find out why you’re here!

    Source:http://www.itiswritten.com/store/products/out_thin_air_2_disc_dvd_set
     
  7. Kijakazi

    Kijakazi JF-Expert Member

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    sahihisho kidogo sio space and time tena ila ni space-time na kuna tofauti kubwa sana katika uandikaji wa na utanmkwaji wa hivyo vitu viwili....
     
  8. Pundit

    Pundit JF-Expert Member

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    True scientists invite criticism and peer review,when true Scientist publish papers, they are more than anything inviting rigorous criticism.There are elements of politics in some scientist, but I am not discussing scientists, I am discussing the ideas, strategies and methods of science.

    There are all sorts of variations in the Big Bang Theory, but the good thing is the tradition of science will ensure in time that Drwinism "Surival of the fittest" will make the most logical and true version survive kwa sababu watu wana debate vigorously.Kabla ya big bang kulikuwa na Steady State Theory iliyokuwa ina contend na Big Bang kwa kusema the Universe has had no beginning and will have no end (led by Fred Hoyle the fellow who coined the phrase "Big Bang" in mock).But Steady State failed when Cosmologists were able to observe the universe and verify, and when Edwin Hubble discovered that the Universe is expanding and galaxies are moving away from each other.Kwa hiyo Sayansi inaweza kuwa haina majibu sahihi leo lakini ina converge kwenye majibu by way of vigorous debate and improvisation.

    Religion is dogmatic and static.

    On the side of religion the whole enterprise is political and therefor suspect.
     
  9. Pundit

    Pundit JF-Expert Member

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    Mimesema hapo juu kuhusu space-time continuum, sasa si kila mtu anajua space-time ni nini ndiyo maana natumia space and time na space-time continuum interchangeably.

    Space-time continuum carries different dimensions, some spatial and the one time dimension, kwa hiyo kusema space-time, space-time continuum au space and time vyote ni sahihi.
     
  10. Kijakazi

    Kijakazi JF-Expert Member

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  11. Kijakazi

    Kijakazi JF-Expert Member

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    Ndugu yangu naomba nijaribu kubishana nawewe kama inawezekana kuna tofauti kubwa unapokuja ktk fizikia kuhusu hivi vitu unapoandika space and time na space-time hilo la pili ni kwamba space na time nikitu kimoja na cha kwanza unamaanisha space na time ni havijaungana, kwa hiyo kwa kifupi SI sahihi kuandika space and time badala ya space-time angalau ktk fizikia...
     
  12. Pundit

    Pundit JF-Expert Member

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    Tomato/Tomato

    Nimesoma Theory ya Relativity ya Albert Einstein na jinsi alivyoweza kufahamu kuwa time ni dimension moja ya space-time contimuum, kwamba kuna mapana, marefu kina na muda, kwa hiyo space-time continuum ina dimensions nne, tatu za space na moja ya TIME.

    Sasa for simplicity's sake nikasema space and time, wewe unataka niseme spacetime. It is the same thing.The difference ni kuwa unaposema space-time unavilump vyote katika hiyo continuum.Unaposema time and space una separate spatial dimensions tatu na ile moja ya time. I do not see where the hardship is.
     
  13. Steve Dii

    Steve Dii JF-Expert Member

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    Kijakazi, asante kwa hoja yako.
    Labda tu nianze kwa kukiri kuwa siyajui mambo haya kindani sana.. ila nikiwa kama mwanadamu anayependa kuelewa asili ya mambo, nalazimika tu kuuliza au kuyaongelea, walau basi nipate ujuu juu wake.

    Nimeongelea quantum mechanics hapo ikiwa mojawapo ya vitu ambavyo vimebakia kama zana pekee za kuelezea chanzo cha ulimwengu katika nyanja za kisayansi, nimefanya hivo kwa kutoa mfano ambao unaweza usilete maana sana, maana kama nilivyosema si kwamba najua haya yote kiundani sana, na ndiyo haja yangu ya kuuliza. Basi katika huo mfano, ninachojua au kukumbuka ni kuwa, hydrogen atom ndiyo ikiwa kama yenye lightest mass ndiyo ilikuwa kitu cha kwanza hapa ulimwenguni kabla ya (kuungana na helium sijui) na kulipuka na mambo mengine ya big bang kufatia.

    Basi nikatika nadharia hiyo nami naquestion science, hiyo helium au hydrogen ilitoka wapi... na ndipo hapo najumuisha hoja hiyo katika yale yale ya divinity ya kuwa, hapo mwanzo palikuwa na neno. Maana science na formulae zote za kuprove kitu cha mwanzo hapa ulimwenguni naona nayo imeshindwa.
    ... sijui kama nitakuwa nimeelezea kimaana hapa. pls let me know. thanks.

    SteveD.
     
  14. Kijakazi

    Kijakazi JF-Expert Member

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  15. Pundit

    Pundit JF-Expert Member

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    To add some meat,

    Huyo mtu fulani anaitwa Fred Hoyle, mwanafizikia wa Kiingereza ambaye alikuwa anapinga theory hii ya mwanzo wa mlipuko, yeye alikuwa champion wa Steady State theory iliyokuwa inapingana na big bang kwa kusema kuwa ulimwengu hauna mwanzo.Jina big bang alilisema kama mockery kwamba ulimwengu hauwezi kuanza na big bang from nowhere, jina lika stick.

    kwa mujibu wa "The Standard Model" na observation theory ya big bang imeonekana kuwa consistent kisayansi kuliko steady state theory

    Singularity haikutokea katika nyuzi joto nyingi sana, ilitokea katika infinite heat and density and infinitely distorted space-time, ndiyo maana ikawa singularity kwa sababu entities zake ziko infinite and therefore incalculable.Wanasayansi wakikutana na singularities katika mathematical models hufanya mbinu kutafuta jinsi ya ku cancel out hizi infinities lakini katika nanoseconds chache za Mwanzo za Big Bang Mpaka leo hamna jinsi ya ku cancel out infinities (Checki "The First Three Minutes" cha Steven Weinberg).the only way to get around this is by getting a unification theory of gravity, a theory that will combine quantum physics with Relativity.Anybody who will do this has a Nobel waiting for him and the honor of succeeeding Einstein.Einstein spent the latter part of his life trying to find this so called "Theory of Everything" with no success.Some scientist calculate that it may take another hunderd years to find a meaningful theory fit for this title.

    Singularities kama hizi pia hutokea katikati ya black holes.Hii inawafanya wanasayansi wengine kuamini kuwa huenda universes nyingine kama yetu huwa zinazaliwa at the hearts of supermassive black holes, ni kama universes zina njia ya kubranch out na kufanya baby universes zinazo evolve, na pengine universe yetu ilitoka katika universe nyingine katika jinsi hii.

    Wengine wanaamini ukiweza ku manipulate your way through a black hole/ wormhole unaweza kutokea kwenye universe nyingine ambayo kanuni za physics zinaweza kuwa tofauti na yetu.Au unaweza kwenda kwenye sehemu ya mbali sana ya Universe yetu.

    Definitions

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/singularity

    Astrophysics A point in space-time at which gravitational forces cause matter to have infinite density and infinitesimal volume, and space and time to become infinitely distorted.

    Mathematics A point at which the derivative does not exist for a given function but every neighborhood of which contains points for which the derivative exists. Also called singular point.



    The widely accepted to be more accurate figure is 13.7 billion +- 120 million years

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

    The earliest life form zimetokea duniani 400 million years ago, time from big bang is 13.7 billion years ago, so life has existed for less than half a billion years, and the universe existed without life (at least on earth) for about 13.3 billion years, not 6 billion years.

    Hominidae wameanza kutokea miaka million 15 tu iliyopita

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_human_evolution


    I don't know about kupotea, but I have to agree with the purposelessness of evolution.We are asking these questions because of the Anthropic Principle

    idea nzima ya "kabla ya singularity" ni potofu,hamna kabla ya singularity kama vile ambavyo hamna north of north pole, at the north pole any point you will go will be south, katika singularity ndipo time na space (space-time continuum) vilipoanza, kwa hiyo hakuna kabla ya singularity katika traditional sense ya timeline, inawezekana kabla ya singularity kulikuwa na dimension nyingine ya time ambayo ni different from our own dimension of time (kama dimensions za space zilivyo tofauti) au universe yetu ili bubble up from some energy pertubation from another universe totally cut off in the what Leonard Sussking calls "The Multiverse"

    Don't be too sure about that, one rogue asteroid like the one that was a near miss in 1910 at Tunguska Siberia or the one that is purpoted to cause an extinction level event that killed the Dinosaur some 60 million years ago and we are all toasted.

    Or better yet, a madman in the white house and/or Kremlin and one too many bottle of Vodka!
     
  16. Wakunyuti

    Wakunyuti JF-Expert Member

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    hii ni ishu kubwa wajameni..mi naona kila mtu aelekee kwenye imani yake tu..kama unaamini sayansi zaidi basi amini ivyo ivyoo..kama maandiko matakatifu basi wewe aminia ivyo ivyo..coz this is the endless debate..hamuwezi mka reach concl kwa hili..kila mtu atatetea imani yake tu..
     
  17. Maskni Wa Akili

    Maskni Wa Akili Member

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    Hapo mwanzo palikuwa na Allah. Kila kitu kilichofuata kiliundwa na Allah. Hiyo space na universe pia binaadamu wote wameumbwa na Allah.

    Nobody made Allah. Allah reports to no one. We humans, angels, ghosts and every living thing you can think off reports to Allah.
     
  18. Steve Dii

    Steve Dii JF-Expert Member

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    Source: BBC


    SteveD.
     
  19. Steve Dii

    Steve Dii JF-Expert Member

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    ..... jiwe lenyewe hili hapa chini:

    Source: http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?p=5306353

    SteveD.
     
  20. Steve Dii

    Steve Dii JF-Expert Member

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    The recent Nasa' Phoenix mission arouses even more questions... Hapo Mwanzo Palikuwa Na Nini?!
     
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