Gazeti la The East African: Katuni ya Kejeli kwa Tanzania, Olympic

[Magembe R. Malima]

Obviously hunifuatilii ninavyoandika na unataka kusoma unachotaka wewe.

Nimeshaongea kuhusu uzembe wa Tanzania.

Lakini pia hilo halinizuii kuongelea presumptive nature ya cartoonist.

Kiranga sina ubishi juu ya wewe kusema ama kutosema juu ya "Uzembe wa Tanzania" kwa sababu uzembe huu hata mtoto mdogo anauona. Tatizo langu ni "nguvu" kubwa unayotumia kuonesha kuwa "Sasa mantiki ya katuni yote inapotea kutokana na 'kuwaonea' Waganda." Hilo ndilo tatizo langu.

 

[Kiranga]

Kiranga sina ubishi juu ya wewe kusema ama kutosema juu ya "Uzembe wa Tanzania" kwa sababu uzembe huu hata mtoto mdogo anauona. Tatizo langu ni "nguvu" kubwa unayotumia kuonesha kuwa "Sasa mantiki ya katuni yote inapotea kutokana na 'kuwaonea' Waganda." Hilo ndilo tatizo langu.

I exploit the weakest link, it's only right.

The weakest link katika hii cartoon ni huo uaguzi wa kwamba EA yote wakenya tu ndo wamerudi na medali.

Which is totally not the case.

And you can't tell me medali za Waganda zipo kwenye begi kwa sababu cartoon imechapwa kabla ya Waganda kushinda, na kwa nini za Wakenya zisiwe kwenye begi vile vile?

The joke is on the cartoonist for the premature verdict. When a cartoon is the butt of a joke shyt is irresistibly hilarious. Especially if it was meant to slap us Tanzanians in a high and mighty condescending way.

 

[Manyi]

Ha ha haa, wabongo tunachonga sana, sawasawa na humu JF tunavyochonga, kila mtu fundi wa kila kitu!, ha ha h ah haaa

 

[Elli]

Hawa jamaa ofisi zao ziko wapi niwapelekeee zawadi? au naomba namba yao ya M-Pesda au Tigopesa fasta

 

[Magembe R. Malima]

I exploit the weakest link, it's only right.

The weakest link katika hii cartoon ni huo uaguzi wa kwamba EA yote wakenya tu ndo wamerudi na medali.

Which is totally not the case.

And you can't tell me medali za Waganda zipo kwenye begi kwa sababu cartoon imechapwa kabla ya Waganda kushinda, na kwa nini za Wakenya zisiwe kwenye begi vile vile?

The joke is on the cartoonist for the premature verdict.

Kiranga katuni hii ikipelekwa katika uchambuzi wa kimahakama itatupwa pembeni kwa kuwa pamoja na ukweli wote iliousema Waganda hawajapewa medali yao. Hapa ndipo hoja zako zinapopata nguvu. Sijawa na tatizo na hilo. Tatizo langu ni mantiki nzima ya Katuni hii. Hapa hakuna suala la Wakenya tu kupata medali, kuna suala la Wakenya hao hao kusikitika/kulia pamoja na "vijimedali" walivyovipata. Hapa panaoneshwa tabia za Nchi husika na si matokeo tu ya viwanjani, ni kwamba Gado kapata pa kusemea juu ya "upigaji domo wa Watanzania."

Hivyo makosa juu ya Waganda angalau "hata kwa hoja dhaifu tu" (ambazo sina nguvu ya kukubishia tena) yanaweza kuhalalishwa kwa tabia ya nchi hiyo. Watanzania si tu hawajapata medali, wala si tu Wakenya wamepata medali... ila Watz ni wenye maneno mengi kuliko vitendo na Wakenya wana vitendo vingi kuliko maneno na bado hawajaridhika. Hilo ndilo nililoliona.

Kuhusu medali kuwa kwenye begi, aliyeleta hoja atajitetea mwenyewe. Mimi ni mchoraji lakini sidhani ningekuwa na utetezi au mawazo ya medali kuwa kwenye begi.

Bado nasimamia pale pale... Watanzania maneno mengi.

 

[simplemind]

Mchoraji ni Mtanzania akiitwa GODFREY MWAMPEMBWA aka GADO

Great editorial catoonist. Mia kwa mia hangevumiliwa na wanasiasa wetu kama angeamua kuishi Tanzania. Jamaa is hard hitting no holds barred type. wasanii.com/index.php/art-a-design/item/godfrey-mwampembwa

 

[sun wu]

Katuni ilichorwa kabla ya michezo kumalizika, kabla Uganda haijashinda.

Ukitaka kuleta habari za alternative interpretation mtu anaweza kuanza kukuambia hata Tanzania imeshinda kwa kumaliza mashindano.

Jamaa kakurupuka kubali tu.

ndio maana nikasema kazi nzuri ya kisanii inaacha upenyo wa interpretation nyingi so long as interpretation is plausible...

Ni kweli before Sunday hakuna mtu angeweza ku-predict kwamba Uganda ingeshinda medali.., lakini tukija kwenye picha mchoraji can argue kwamba ujumbe wake ulikuwa kwamba waganda wamefurahia sana ushindi wao ambao kwao ni mkubwa (therefore hakuna nchi yenye furaha Africa kama Uganda, because this is their best Olympic for decades) hivyo basi mchoraji ameonyesha hio furaha kwa mganda kupiga mluzi na kufanya shopping ya nguvu.., na kuificha medali yake sababu kwake ni kitu kikubwa sana kuliko wengine...

Vile vile kama waganda wasingeshinda kitu tungeweza tukasema kwamba the picture shows waganda walikwenda kufanya shopping....

Therefore my argument is plausible na kusema kwamba picha inaonyesha Waganda hawana medali sio kweli as wanaweza wakawa wameificha.

All in all we can say this cartoon is good na its plausible kusema kwamba waganda medali yao ipo kwenye bags lakini you cant say beyond reasonable doubt kwamba cartoon inasema waganda hawajapata medali

 

[Kiranga]

Kiranga katuni hii ikipelekwa katika uchambuzi wa kimahakama itatupwa pembeni kwa kuwa pamoja na ukweli wote iliousema Waganda hawajapewa medali yao. Hapa ndipo hoja zako zinapopata nguvu. Sijawa na tatizo na hilo. Tatizo langu ni mantiki nzima ya Katuni hii. Hapa hakuna suala la Wakenya tu kupata medali, kuna suala la Wakenya hao hao kusikitika/kulia pamoja na "vijimedali" walivyovipata. Hapa panaoneshwa tabia za Nchi husika na si matokeo tu ya viwanjani, ni kwamba Gado kapata pa kusemea juu ya "upigaji domo wa Watanzania."

Hivyo makosa juu ya Waganda angalau "hata kwa hoja dhaifu tu" (ambazo sina nguvu ya kukubishia tena) yanaweza kuhalalishwa kwa tabia ya nchi hiyo. Watanzania si tu hawajapata medali, wala si tu Wakenya wamepata medali... ila Watz ni wenye maneno mengi kuliko vitendo na Wakenya wana vitendo vingi kuliko maneno na bado hawajaridhika. Hilo ndilo nililoliona.

Kuhusu medali kuwa kwenye begi, aliyeleta hoja atajitetea mwenyewe. Mimi ni mchoraji lakini sidhani ningekuwa na utetezi au mawazo ya medali kuwa kwenye begi.

Bado nasimamia pale pale... Watanzania maneno mengi.

Notion nzima ya "Wakenya wako hivi", "Watanzania wako hivi" inanuka uvivu wa kufikiri na inatokana na umasikini wa mawazo.

Na hata ukitaka kuiweka in a non serious comic strip, cartoon imekuwa bungled kiasi cha kufanya kichekesho badala ya kuwa Tanzania, kinabadilika kinakuwa Gado.

Kwa sababu kuna wazembe wachache nafasi za juu haimaanishi kwamba Watanzania wote ndio wako hivyo.

Hii haina tofauti na zile thread za watu wanakuja kuliza "Hivi wake wa Kinyakyusa tabia zao zikoje?"

Really? Dunia ya leo tuna attribute vitu kwa ukabila na nchi wakati kuna watu wa kila aina kutoka kila kabila na kila nchi?

 

[Kiranga]

ndio maana nikasema kazi nzuri ya kisanii inaacha upenyo wa interpretation nyingi so long as interpretation is plausible...

Ni kweli before Sunday hakuna mtu angeweza ku-predict kwamba Uganda ingeshinda medali.., lakini tukija kwenye picha mchoraji can argue kwamba ujumbe wake ulikuwa kwamba waganda wamefurahia sana ushindi wao ambao kwao ni mkubwa (therefore hakuna nchi yenye furaha Africa kama Uganda, because this is their best Olympic for decades) hivyo basi mchoraji ameonyesha hio furaha kwa mganda kupiga mluzi na kufanya shopping ya nguvu.., na kuificha medali yake sababu kwake ni kitu kikubwa sana kuliko wengine...

Vile vile kama waganda wasingeshinda kitu tungeweza tukasema kwamba the picture shows waganda walikwenda kufanya shopping....

Therefore my argument is plausible na kusema kwamba picha inaonyesha Waganda hawana medali sio kweli as wanaweza wakawa wameificha.

All in all we can say this cartoon is good na its plausible kusema kwamba waganda medali yao ipo kwenye bags lakini you cant say beyond reasonable doubt kwamba cartoon inasema waganda hawajapata medali

Gado hakuwa consistent kwa kuwachora Wakenya wana medali na Waganda hawana medali.

Hakuwa consinstent kwa sababu alichora katuni prematurely kabla michezo kuisha.

Cartoonist mzuri hawi presumptive na kuagua agua mambo ambayo anaweza kuwa na uhakika nayo kwa kusubiri muda mdogo tu.

Gado kachemka.

 

[sun wu]

Kiranga katuni hii ikipelekwa katika uchambuzi wa kimahakama itatupwa pembeni kwa kuwa pamoja na ukweli wote iliousema Waganda hawajapewa medali yao.

Kwanini itupwe pembeni hivi aliyesema medali lazima mtu avae shingoni ni nani kwahio mahakamani hii cartoon itapita as mchoraji anaweza kusema waganda wameficha medali yao na furaha yao ya kupiga mluzi inaonyesha kwamba wamepata kitu

Kuhusu medali kuwa kwenye begi, aliyeleta hoja atajitetea mwenyewe. Mimi ni mchoraji lakini sidhani ningekuwa na utetezi au mawazo ya medali kuwa kwenye begi.

I can argue successfully kwamba waganda wanaweza kuwa wameweka medali yao kwenye bags... kwanini ?, sababu sio kawaida yao kushinda therefore wameificha isiibiwe (although nina uhakika mchoraji alimaanisha kwamba waganda wamekwenda shopping) lakini sasa anaweza kusema maana yake ni kwamba waganda wana furaha sana hence kupiga miluzi na kujipongeza kwa shopping as well as kuficha medali mbali sababu kwao its not normal kushinda..

All in all my point is hapa hatuwezi kum-criticize mchoraji sababu anaweza akatoa explanation ambayo ni plausible.., explanation yangu isingefanya kazi iwapo tu Mganda asingekuwa na furaha

 

[piper]

Serves us right

 

[Magembe R. Malima]

Notion nzima ya "Wakenya wako hivi", "Watanzania wako hivi" inanuka uvivu wa kufikiri na inatokana na umasikini wa mawazo.

Na hata ukitaka kuiweka in a non serious comic strip, cartoon imekuwa bungled kiasi cha kufanya kichekesho badala ya kuwa Tanzania, kinabadilika kinakuwa Gado.

Kwa sababu kuna wazembe wachache nafasi za juu haimaanishi kwamba Watanzania wote ndio wako hivyo.

Hii haina tofauti na zile thread za watu wanakuja kuliza "Hivi wake wa Kinyakyusa tabia zao zikoje?"

Really? Dunia ya leo tuna attribute vitu kwa ukabila na nchi wakati kuna watu wa kila aina kutoka kila kabila na kila nchi?

Kiranga hapa sasa naona mambo yamekuwa siyo mambo... hivi kumbe hatuwezi tena kusema Wachina ni wachapakazi sana (kwa kuwa miongoni mwao kuna wazembe)? Wala hatuwezi kusema Watanzania ni wakarimu kwa kuwa miongoni mwao kuna......? Wala hatuwezi kusema tabia za Warusi ama Waholanzi?

Hata hivyo mijadala ya generalization huwa na ubishi mwingi. Hatari ya kauli za jumla kama "Wanawake wa Kinyakyusa......" huwaadhibu hata wasiokuwamo. Nakubaliana nawe. Pamoja na hilo bado mienendo ya ki-nchi na saikolojia za jumla za watu wake zinafahamika.Wengi sisi tunajua saikolojia za Watu wa Korea ya Kaskazini, Marekani, China, Brazil, Uswisi, Canada, Sweden, Kenya, Tanzania (porojo) etc.

 

[Kiranga]

Kiranga hapa sasa naona mambo yamekuwa siyo mambo... hivi kumbe hatuwezi tena kusema Wachina ni wachapakazi sana (kwa kuwa miongoni mwao kuna wazembe)? Wala hatuwezi kusema Watanzania ni wakarimu kwa kuwa miongoni mwao kuna......? Wala hatuwezi kusema tabia za Warusi ama Waholanzi?

Hata hivyo mijadala ya generalization huwa na ubishi mwingi. Hatari ya kauli za jumla kama "Wanawake wa Kinyakyusa......" huwaadhibu hata wasiokuwamo. Nakubaliana nawe. Pamoja na hilo bado mienendo ya ki-nchi na saikolojia za jumla za watu wake zinafahamika.Wengi sisi tunajua saikolojia za Watu wa Korea ya Kaskazini, Marekani, China, Brazil, Uswisi, Canada, Sweden, Kenya, Tanzania (porojo) etc.

Mwenyewe ushasema generalization halafu una support bado hiyo hiyo generalization.

Unataka kufanaya kama Watanzania monolithic wakati kuna wengine washua tu habari za labalaba huwakuti.

Vibaya hivyo.

 

[MAMMAMIA]

Nashauri miaka ijayo wapelekwe na wacheza solo na zumna,if posibo na KANGA MOKO LAKI C PESA,HUENDA TUKAPATA WALAU MEDANI YA BATI

TZ haipati hata medali ya mkaa kwa mashindano yoyote ya akili au nguvu. Kama kukiwa na mashindano ya kulalamika na kutoa sababu sisi wa mwanzo.

 

[Kiranga]

Kwanini itupwe pembeni hivi aliyesema medali lazima mtu avae shingoni ni nani kwahio mahakamani hii cartoon itapita as mchoraji anaweza kusema waganda wameficha medali yao na furaha yao ya kupiga mluzi inaonyesha kwamba wamepata kitu


I can argue successfully kwamba waganda wanaweza kuwa wameweka medali yao kwenye bags... kwanini ?, sababu sio kawaida yao kushinda therefore wameificha isiibiwe (although nina uhakika mchoraji alimaanisha kwamba waganda wamekwenda shopping) lakini sasa anaweza kusema maana yake ni kwamba waganda wana furaha sana hence kupiga miluzi na kujipongeza kwa shopping as well as kuficha medali mbali sababu kwao its not normal kushinda..

All in all my point is hapa hatuwezi kum-criticize mchoraji sababu anaweza akatoa explanation ambayo ni plausible.., explanation yangu isingefanya kazi iwapo tu Mganda asingekuwa na furaha

Asante kwa hekaya.

As far as you are arguing, you can argue that you do not exist and that you are just the collective intellect of an extinct white tribe straight out of a Haggard plot, living through your avatar which is preserved in some pot with holy baobab juice mixed with Allan Quartermain's rather acidic urine.

And I will accept that as an argument.

Facts on the other hand require more reasoning.

 

[sun wu]

Gado hakuwa consistent kwa kuwachora Wakenya wana medali na Waganda hawana medali.

Is the argument kwamba waganda medali zao zipo kwenye bags (wamezificha sababu kwao sio kawaida kushinda) not plausible.., wakenya wamevaa yao as kwao is not a big deal kushinda

Hakuwa consinstent kwa sababu alichora katuni prematurely kabla michezo kuisha.

Mkuu hakuna mtu before Sunday ambae angejua kwamba waganda wangeshinda marathon.., na angesubiri kidogo ili gazeti ni la wiki nzima hivyo ujumbe huu ungekuwa old news tayari.., hivyo kafanya vema kuutoa hio siku na kama waganda wasingeshinda angesema wamekwenda shopping wameshinda he can argue medali yao ipo kwenye bags

Cartoonist mzuri hawi presumptive na kuagua agua mambo ambayo anaweza kuwa na uhakika nayo kwa kusubiri muda mdogo tu.Gado kachemka.

mkuu muda kidogo tu ni wiki nzima na angetoa hii kitu wiki kesho tungesema amechemka kwa kutoa old news..., kumbuka "Yesterdays news is Today's History"

 

[Magembe R. Malima]

Mwenyewe ushasema generalization halafu una support bado hiyo hiyo generalization.

Unataka kufanaya kama Watanzania monolithic wakati kuna wengine washua tu habari za labalaba huwakuti.

Vibaya hivyo.

Kiranga nilichosema kuhusu generalization ni:

1. Ni suala lenye ubishi.. kwa maana kwamba tunatofautia juu ya mitazamo na experiences zetu.. wapo watakaowaona wa-Tz ni wakarimu wengine watasema "Ni waoga tu." Hawa wote wamegeneralize. Sasa nani ni sahihi kati yao.. hilo ji suala jingine.
2. "Hatari ya kauli za jumla kama "Wanawake wa Kinyakyusa......" huwaadhibu hata wasiokuwamo. Nazungumzia hatari kwa maana ya "Risk" ama "Chance" ama "Probability." Sijapinga asilimia mia ya uwepo wa generalization, nimetoa warning juu ya hatari zinazoambatana na zoezi la ku-generalize. Generalization fulani inaweza kuwapa maksi wale waiostahili pia. Sijasema generalization ni kitu hatari hivyo kisitumike.
3. Mitizamo/mienendo ya jumla ya nchi na wananchi wake inafahamika japo wananchi fulani fulani wanaweza kuwa wanatofautiana na wenzao wengi katika mambo kadhaa.

Kama nimekuchanganya kuwa sasa nasimamia wapi, msimamo wangu ni kuwa MIENENDO YA JUMLA YA NCHI KADHAA NA WANANCHI WAKE INAFAHAMIKA, MIONGONI MWA NCHI HIZO NI TANZANIA. Hata hivyo tukisema Watanzania ni wakrimu hatumaanishi kila mtu ni mkarimu bali wengi wao. Sasa ukijichanganya kuwa "kila mtu ni mkarimu" itakula kwako.

 

[Kiranga]

Is the argument kwamba waganda medali zao zipo kwenye bags (wamezificha sababu kwao sio kawaida kushinda) not plausible.., wakenya wamevaa yao as kwao is not a big deal kushinda

Anything is plausible, however that is not the question here. What is your point?

Mkuu hakuna mtu before Sunday ambae angejua kwamba waganda wangeshinda marathon..,

More the reason kuacha kujishebedua kutabiri kwamba hawatashinda.

na angesubiri kidogo ili gazeti ni la wiki nzima hivyo ujumbe huu ungekuwa old news tayari..,

Hakulazimika kutoa ujumbe huu tu, kuna vitu kibao vya kuchora vyenye uhakika zaidi.

hivyo kafanya vema kuutoa hio siku na kama waganda wasingeshinda angesema wamekwenda shopping wameshinda he can argue medali yao ipo kwenye bags

You do not argue with a cartoon, you arrest with an immediate, crisp, concise depiction. This wasn't it.It was presumptive, inaccurate,condescending and uninformed.

mkuu muda kidogo tu ni wiki nzima na angetoa hii kitu wiki kesho tungesema amechemka kwa kutoa old news..., kumbuka "Yesterdays news is Today's History"

Wengi tushazoea kulipua lipua kwa hiyo umuhimu wa hata kujaribu tu kuwa precise within reason hatuoni.

Kwani alilazimishwa kujitwika ubashiri kama Sheikh Yahya?

 

[sun wu]

Asante kwa hekaya.

As far as you are arguing, you can argue that you do not exist and that you are just the collective intellect of an extinct white tribe straight out of a Haggard plot, living through your avatar which is preserved in some pot with holy baobab juice mixed with Allan Quartermain's rather acidic urine.

And I will accept that as an argument.

Facts on the other hand require more reasoning.

Yes you could argue that and if your arguments is supported by facts.., your argument will be plausible.

Lakini you can't tell me from the picture Gado kasema waganda hawajapata medali and tell me that is a fact.., (because its not as medals can be put in a bag)..

As for what he meant sababu alichora huu mchoro before Sunday huenda ni kweli alimaanisha waganda wamekwenda shopping, lakini sababu kazi yake ni ya daraja la juu sana anaweza akabadilisha na kusema what he meant is waganda ndio wanafuraha kuliko their counterparts and his work will still stand as true

 

[Kiranga]

Kiranga nilichosema kuhusu generalization ni:

1. Ni suala lenye ubishi.. kwa maana kwamba tunatofautia juu ya mitazamo na experiences zetu.. wapo watakaowaona wa-Tz ni wakarimu wengine watasema "Ni waoga tu." Hawa wote wamegeneralize. Sasa nani ni sahihi kati yao.. hilo ji suala jingine.
2. "Hatari ya kauli za jumla kama "Wanawake wa Kinyakyusa......" huwaadhibu hata wasiokuwamo. Nazungumzia hatari kwa maana ya "Risk" ama "Chance" ama "Probability." Sijapinga asilimia mia ya uwepo wa generalization, nimetoa warning juu ya hatari zinazoambatana na zoezi la ku-generalize. Generalization fulani inaweza kuwapa maksi wale waiostahili pia. Sijasema generalization ni kitu hatari hivyo kisitumike.
3. Mitizamo/mienendo ya jumla ya nchi na wananchi wake inafahamika japo wananchi fulani fulani wanaweza kuwa wanatofautiana na wenzao wengi katika mambo kadhaa.

Kama nimekuchanganya kuwa sasa nasimamia wapi, msimamo wangu ni kuwa MIENENDO YA JUMLA YA NCHI KADHAA NA WANANCHI WAKE INAFAHAMIKA, MIONGONI MWA NCHI HIZO NI TANZANIA. Hata hivyo tukisema Watanzania ni wakrimu hatumaanishi kila mtu ni mkarimu bali wengi wao. Sasa ukijichanganya kuwa "kila mtu ni mkarimu" itakula kwako.

Notion kwamba kuna mienendo ya watu fulani ndio msingi wa ubaguzi wa rangi na white supremacy.

Black people of all people should know better.

Unaweza kusema "Wakenya wako hivi" na "Watanzania wako vile" mtu akakuuliza mbona Wakenya wa Mombasa wako karibu sana na watu wa Tanga na Unguja kuliko walivyo na Wakenya wa Kisumu?

Na mbona Watanzania wa Mara wako karibu sana kitabia na Wakenya wa Kisumu kuliko walivyo karibu na Watanzania wa Pemba?

Au watanzania waliosoma Alliance wako hivi against hizo typical traits mnazozisema?

Unaona ghorofa lako la simplification linaanguka kirahisi tu.