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Beregu v Kinana - Hivi kweli tunategemea kambi ya upinzani?

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Siasa' started by SN_VijanaFM, Sep 15, 2010.

  1. S

    SN_VijanaFM Member

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    Sep 15, 2010
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    Tumetumiwa hii makala na mwana JF "Kiranga": Mdahalo: Baregu v. Kinana. Na tumeamua kuirudisha JF!


    Tuweke ushabiki wa vyama pembeni; hivi kambi ya upinzani inatutendea haki Watanzania? Ukipata muda soma hii makala ya Kiranga, akinyambua yaliyopo kwenye mdahalo kati ya Beregu na Kinana.


    _________________________________________________


    The exchanges start on a civil enough tone, and goes on to even jovial at times. This is a relief in so far as we have witnessed some less than civil exchanges, especially at the grassroot level. I have always advocated a competitive democracy that remains civil. The Jamaicans are having a lot of problems with their politics, with the JLP and PNP constantly causing political eruptions on the streets of Kingston and elsewhere on that island. I would not want to see the Tanzanian scenario degenerating into that.


    Prof. Baregu kicks off with the question of education. Sadly, for a person of the professor's caliber, I would expect some solid statistics. I did not hear any on this front. I know Mr. Kinana later produced an anecdote to demonstrate the Kikwete administration's commitment to education, raising the number of students in higher learning institutions from a paltry 38,000 to around 120,000.This is impressive, and while I do not wish to sound unappreciative on this commendable feat, my concerns remains with the quality of the education provided. Elsewhere I saw the First Lady giving a rather detailed, if not exactly spirited, speech centred on eductaion while campaigning for Shukuru Kawambwa in Bagamoyo, it was also impressive.I have to say if you go by the sheer numbers reported, it is hard to say Kikwete has done nothing on the education front (and I am not a Kikwete fan by any stretch, so this is not some lovefest). Maybe he could have done better and Prof. Baregu is attempting to show that CHADEMA can do better, but without specifics this comes off hardly convincing.


    CHADEMA's policy of free education for all ( or at least non-need based full grants) is hardly practical, highly uneconomic and mostly an unfair attempt at statist largesse. Even a die hard advocate for free education like Mwl. Nyerere, a person whose gravita CHADEMA uses constantly to tout their legitimacy, denounced the cause as foolhardy. In his May Day 1995 speech in Mbeya Nyerere argued that Tanzania now has millionaires who can afford to pay for their children's education, so they should pay. I totally understand that there are some people who need help, and while I do not advocate governmental largesse and the welfare state, I do understand that we are not at a stage where the government can totally withdraw from some social services. I get that. But why do we need to have a non-need based grant system beats me. This means a millionaire's son has the same access to these grants as does a peasant's son from Malampaka ? Where is the fairness here? In Switzerland even the penalty of a traffic offence is determined by a person's wealth, because they figure if you have a flat fine, some people (especially millionaires) would view a $ 100 fine as pocket change and not worth worrying over. I am not saying we should adopt a proportionate payment system, but at least make everybody pay what they can afford, don't give out unmitigated stipends and full unequivocal grants. Especially if our resources are meagre and must be used very frugally in the first place.


    I agree with Baregu's/ CHADEMA'S vision of introducing more elective offices and doing away with presidential appointees as DC's and RC's for example. This is in tune with my vision of changing the topography of our politics, changing the structure of power from a top down, appointment based system which is more accountable to the president and prone to political clientilism and temptations of presidential largesse, to a bottom up, people centred, merit based and more people accountable leadership.


    On CCM's candidates passing unopposed, this clearly shows the opposition's weakness and validates CCM's claim that the opposition is made up mainly of "election parties". The rebuttal from Prof. Baregu is hardly fitting. The number of constituencies with no opposition candidates is so high and does not match the number of constituents with claimed irregularities. Claims of opposition candidates being bought off just goes to show Tanzanians that the opposition is not serious enough to nominate serious candidate. If a party can nominate someone who can easily be bought, I don't have confidence with that party's maturity and vetting process.


    The truth remains many of the opposition candidates are very weak, unfamiliar with the issues, unexposed and even naïve. While I cannot say that CCM does not have the same problem for sure, I would expect the opposition to give Tanzanians a better choice, otherwise what is the point of replacing one mediocrity with another ? Especially if the present mediocrity is at least known (zimwi likujualo halikuli likakwisha). The CHADEMA Kilombero constituency candidate is on record saying one does not need anything special to be MP. CHADEMA readily takes CCM rejects, with ceremonious publicity, no vetting or indoctrination. This leaves people wondering, are the CCM rejects the best that CHADEMA can offer ? What if CCM is planting it's intelligence into CHADEMA? There is actually a case (I believe in one of the Tabora constituencies) where a CCM reject was given the CHADEMA nomination, only not to return the forms and cause the CCM candidate to go unopposed. What if this candidate had decided to contest, win under the CHADEMA banner, and sabotage the CHADEMA agenda within the parliament ?

    The notion of MP's passing unopposed is actually unconstitutional. Clause 66 of the constitution clearly list the types of MPs and how they get to be MPs. Nothing is mentioned on unopposed MPs sailing to parliament without actually being elected by Tanzanians ( not only CCM members in CCM primaries). I am surprised the opposition doesn't mention this, maybe it is a shameful issue that they did not field a candidate in the first place and therefore mentioning that would be adding insult to injury. But I would like to see the people getting even a "YES/ NO" vote, if only to give the MP legitimacy as chances are it would be very hard to lose in an unopposed election. Overall, this is symptomatic of a weak opposition. There is a n article from "The Citizen" detailing the demise of competitive democracy and the opposition in Tanzania (click).


    On voter registration card manipulation, CHADEMA should come with a more credible story, even set up a trap to build a concrete case.
    [​IMG]


    Then the spin and fluff kicks in full blown mode with Kinana asking Baregu to apologize for something he did not say. Kinana gives some sound, if general, unsolicited and self serving, advice on the need for CHADEMA to build it's clout. This is a genuine issue. And while CHADEMA claims that it is a young party, 18 years is not so young and if this was a person, CHADEMA would be of voting age now. Kinana also mentions the issue of CCM rejects being celebrated at CHADEMA. I pointed this out earlier elsewhere as an issue. And while I do not outright oppose party switching, I would want at least a vetting and indoctrination period.


    Professor Baregu rightly rejects the categorization of his misconstrued comments as a snob to Tanzanians. He went on to invoke the Nyalali Commitee's findings and recommendation on building a more democratic environment -a tired, if valid- excuse. What the professor does not say is how has CHADEMA pressured the government and rallied it's base to have these recommendations actually instituted. Prof. Baregu talks about the quality of the opposition input in the parliament as endorsed by the speaker, and how this input is undermined by the sheer number of CCM MPs. Perhaps Prof. Baregu is milking the speaker's graceful and diplomatic coalition building comments a bit too far, perhaps not. But as he further points on, without a majority the opposition will remain ornamental.


    On negative campaigning, Kinana accuses CHADEMA of being over litigious and serial complainers, hence undermining their own credibility. While CCM is good at politicking and framing the CHADEMA narrative to CCM's advantage, and regardless of the merit of CHADEMA's claims, there are already reports of certain sects of the workers movements announcing it's alienation from Slaa/ CHADEMA in what is perceived as Slaa's move to block their chances. This then becomes a question of principles over political expediency, and I am always for principles. CHADEMA should stand it's grounds where it thinks elections regulation are violated. CCM cannot be objective in judging CHADEMA as over litigious, that is what we expect to hear from them. While I would like to see a democracy that runs smoothly without the interference of the courts and NEC, when necessary, the appeal systems should be used with no fear of appearing ‘over litigious'. Let the people decide whether CHADEMA is over litigious, perhaps our opposition has been "under litigious" all along and it needs to step up it's game in that aspect.

    On the question of a "level playing field" Prof. Baregu fails to make a coherent case. State media news outlet just started giving a fair share of airtime to opposition parties after some vehement protests, I expected Prof. Baregu to voice his chagrin on this, instead he downplayed the whole issue as of a minor importance and chose to dwell on the CCM stadiums -which rightly belong to all Tanzanians- being used as CCM's properties, a matter which shouldn't have to wait until election time to be adressed. This further validate Kinana's claims that the opposition parties are election parties, how has the opposition raised this as an issue before ? Was it ever brought up and pursued in parliament? If it was I did not hear it, and not from lack of following.


    Prof. Baregu went on to talk about the sad cowardice acts of CCM censoring it's candidates. This is pure and simple censorship, however spinned. It looks like either CCM doesn't have much of a record to defend, or is not very confident of it's candidates ability to champion that record, possibly even both. A prominent up and coming CCM cadre was quoted as endorsing this move as " good politics" meaning politics in the negative sense of obfuscation and Machiavellian manipulations. According to him the country is poor, CCM does not have much to show for all it's years in power, a lot of the promises made in 2005 are still unrealized, so it makes sense to refrain from debates. And this guy is one of the rising stars.To him political expediency comes prior to accountability to the people and transparency. If this learned star has this mindset I shudder to think what the number of semi-literate candidates will think. They are probably breathing a sigh of relief and thanking the party bigwigs for not exposing their incompetency. This is not a good look for CCM at all. And all the obfuscation Kinana gave, about the president and CCM candidates needing to go to the people are so transparent, I can see clearly through them. Is CCM this much anti-press, anti-intellectuals and anti-transparency ? What does it fear? Kinana couldn't answer this on the issues and resorted to obfuscation and fluff.


    Baregu claims the demographics of Tanzanian voters has changed so much, and the current body of voters is very youthful, and he expects his candidate to win confidently (no mention of possible results altering vote machinations was made). This remains to be seen.

    Source: Vijana FM
     
  2. M

    Mwafrika JF-Expert Member

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    bange tu hizi toka kwa mtetezi wa mafisadi kiranga bin kiranga
     
  3. Malafyale

    Malafyale JF-Expert Member

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    Tafadhali msituletee madudu ya Kiranga hapa,yeye kaenda andika kwa Michuzi kwa sababu anajua kule hamna challenge ya mawazo;mwacheni ayaweke huko huko mawazo yake hasi!

    Kimsingi,Kiranga aendelee kuandikia Michuzi sio hapa kwa great thinkers!
     
  4. Kiranga

    Kiranga JF-Expert Member

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    Kwa bahati nzuri au mbaya wewe si moderator na huwezi kufanya censorship hapa.

    Haya ndiyo mageuzi unayotaka kuleta? Mtu yeyote ambaye hupendi mawazo yake unataka kumnyamazisha kwa nguvu? Vipi kuhusu kulumbana kwa hoja ? Au huna hoja na huwezi kujieleza unategemea kufungia watu, kufungia watu nako huwezi kwa sababu sio mod, basi tabu tupu.

    Watu wanataka double standards, standard moja kwao, nyingine kwa wapinzani wao. Mimi nakataa upuuzi huu.

    Ukitaka standards za juu dhidi ya mpinzani wako, ni lazima na wewe ukubali kupitia standards hizo hizo. Hatutaki habari za mapenzi na ushabiki, kama wewe ni CCM au upinzani hatujali, tunachotaka ni kutumia wembe ule ule kuchana kote kuwili.

    Najua nitajenga maadui pande zote kwa kusema hivi, lakini watu wanaopenda principles wataona mtu unaposimamia principles na kukataa kupinda eti kwa sababu unayemuongelea ni fulani.
     
  5. Malafyale

    Malafyale JF-Expert Member

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    Kiranga;

    Article yako ni ndefu mno lkn ulichoongea ni pumba tu;shame on you!
     
  6. Nyani Ngabu

    Nyani Ngabu Platinum Member

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    Duh! babu umenichekesha kweli. Yaani mwenzako kajipinda kuandika aya zote hizo halafu wewe unazi-diss kwa sentensi moja tu. Hiyo si haki babu :becky:
     
  7. J

    Jasusi JF-Expert Member

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    Nadhani tunakosea kutegemea wapinzani peke yao watuletee mabadiliko. Mimi naamini kila mtu anao wajibu. Nawaheshimu akina Baregu, Lissu, Slaa, Mbowe ambao wamejiweka mstari wa mbele katika harakati hizi. Badala ya kuwabeza tujiulize tufanye nini tuwasaidie. Samora Machel alianza na wapiganaji wachache ambao tunaweza kuwaita rag tag. Lakini pole pole walijenga harakati hatimaye Msumbiji ikawa huru. Let us give our support and ideas to those who are on the frontline of change in Tanzania.
     
  8. Kiranga

    Kiranga JF-Expert Member

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    Ahsante, najua unasema kwa sababu una hasira ulitaka kunifungia hapa lakini huwezi. Unataka niwe fanboy wa upande wako lakini mimi sitaki, na hiyo habari ya pumba ni mawazo yako tu, mtu usiyejua kujenga hoja, mwenye ghadhabu na jazba, unayetaka kukaba wapinzani wako bila kuweza kuwakabili kwa malumbano ya hoja kwa hoja.

    Sasa hapo nani anaongea pumba ? Huwezi kutaka tu kitu kiwe pumba halafu kikawa pumba, kama unaweza onyesha hapa pumba ziko wapi na kwa nini.

    Ukishindwa wewe ndiye utakayekuwa umejivua nguo hadharani na kuonyesha unasema maneno usiyoweza kuyadhihirisha.

    Article ni ndefu mno, unaweza kusoma "Human Action" au "The Fate of Africa" wewe kama unaona hii piece ndefu ?
     
  9. Nyani Ngabu

    Nyani Ngabu Platinum Member

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    And where are you?
     
  10. J

    Jasusi JF-Expert Member

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    Nyani,
    Count me in! I am giving my support to Chadema. Kuanzia Oktoba utanisikia nikiwa ground zero.
     
  11. Nyani Ngabu

    Nyani Ngabu Platinum Member

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    Tutakuwa wote. Tutafutane ukitinga....
     
  12. J

    Jasusi JF-Expert Member

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    There you go! I'm so happy.
     
  13. Kiranga

    Kiranga JF-Expert Member

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    Mimi sifagilii kumbeza mtu yeyote, lakini mtu aki slack nasema. Na ukisoma piece hiyo juu utaona nimekuwa disappointed na pande zote. Professor angeweza kujiandaa vizuri zaidi, Kinana ameleta fluff na obfuscation nyingi sana chiefly kwa sababu rekodi ya chama chake ina mapungufu mengi sana.

    Wapinzani hawawezi kuingia katika struggle huku wakitegemea kupewa kura za huruma, inabidi wafanye kazi yao kupata imani ya wananchi. Kwa vile tu wao ni wapinzani hili halimaanishi kwamba ndio watakaowafaa wananchi zaidi, inabidi wawaonyeshe wananchi hivyo.
     
  14. Malafyale

    Malafyale JF-Expert Member

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    Upupu wa kwanza wa Kiranga

    CHADEMA's policy of free education for all ( or at least non-need based full grants) is hardly practical, highly uneconomic and mostly an unfair attempt at statist largesse

    Dudu la pili la Kiranga

    If a party can nominate someone who can easily be bought, I don't have confidence with that party's maturity and vetting process.

    Kioja kingine cha tatu cha Kiranga

    The CHADEMA Kilombero constituency candidate is on record saying one does not need anything special to be MP

    Uzandiki wa 4 wa kiranga,ona anavyojichanganya

    And while I do not outright oppose party switching, I would want at least a vetting and indoctrination period

    Upupu wa tano wa kiranga

    There are already reports of certain sects of the workers movements announcing it's alienation from Slaa/ CHADEMA in what is perceived as Slaa's move to block their chances.

    Kibweka cha 6 cha Kiranga;anajaribu hata kuzipinga tafiti za kitaalam

    On the question of a "level playing field" Prof. Baregu fails to make a coherent case. State media news outlet just started giving a fair share of airtime to opposition parties

    Kituko cha 7 cha Kiranga;sasa anamdhalilisha Prof Baregu

    If this learned star has this mindset I shudder to think what the number of semi-literate candidates will think

    Mwisho Kiranga akajitetea hivi

    (and I am not a Kikwete fan)








     
  15. J

    Jasusi JF-Expert Member

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    Kiranga,
    Profesa ni novice katika hii arena ya propaganda na kujiuza. Akina Kinana ni alwattan. Nakubali angeweza kujiandaa vizuri na kwa kuwa hii ni interview yake ya kwanza katika international radio atajifunza kutoka makosa yake. Pia itabidi ajifunze kwamba CCM ni masters wa obsfuction na natumaini next time atakuwa alert zaidi to hold their feet to the fire.
     
  16. Nyani Ngabu

    Nyani Ngabu Platinum Member

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    Duh....mazee kweli vibwagizo unavyo :becky::becky:
     
  17. Malafyale

    Malafyale JF-Expert Member

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    Hata mtoto wa darasa la 1 atajua tu kwa urahisi wewe Kiranga upo pande ipi,lkn nashangaa unaposema i'm not JK fan
     
  18. Kiranga

    Kiranga JF-Expert Member

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    Baada ya madongo naona umeanza kusoma sasa, lakini hujaweza kuja na critique.

    Rudi shule kwanza ujifunze kwamba i'm not JK fan is bungled English.

    Sasa wewe huwezi kuandika sentensi ya maneno sita kwa kiingereza, kweli tukutegemee uelewe hilo pande hapo juu na ma concepts ya equanimity, walking the thin line of objectivity? Wewe si utataka barbarism ya "if you are not with us you are with the enemy" wewe ?

    Ndiyo maana nasema kazi kubwa.
     
  19. S

    Solomon David JF-Expert Member

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    Kiranga ni mwanaccm na mpenzi mkubwa sana wa Kikwete. Angalia hata hapo juu, amepondea chadema mara tatu ya alivyojaribu kuisema ccm. Uzuri ni kwamba watu wengi wameshamshtukia
     
  20. S

    Solomon David JF-Expert Member

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    Wewe ni mpambe wa mafisadi wa ccm na sasa umezidi kujifunua jinsi ulivyo
     
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