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Askofu Kilaini achemsha kwa ushauri huu!

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Siasa' started by Cynic, Jun 19, 2009.

  1. Cynic

    Cynic JF-Expert Member

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    Kwangu mimi huu ni Ushauri wa hatari kwa nchi iliyojiwekea misingi ya uhuru wa kuabudu kwenye katiba yake. Yaani watz 200 wakitaka kuabudu wasihalalishwe kuabudu! Idadi gani ni halali?
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2009
  2. Kaa la Moto

    Kaa la Moto JF-Expert Member

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    Hata RC si wanaweza kuwa makanjanja?
    Hawa wanacheza game wasilolijua. Maana waagiza wa vitu vingi toka nje wao kama sikosei ndio namabri one. Na kama kuna wakwepaji kodi wazuri wao nadhani pia ndio nambari wani.
    Lakini kwa kuwa si wote hatuwezi kuwahukumu wao wote.
    Asianzishe mijadala ya dini ipi ni bora Tanzania na ipi siyo. Nadhani anataka kutupeleka huko.
    Wote tuko sawa mbele za Mungu regardless of our purely human made religions.
     
  3. K

    Kwame Nkrumah JF-Expert Member

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    Angesema misamaha ya kodi iangaliwe kwa makini kwa taasisi za kidini ili iwe na maana kwa wananchi, lakini kama kweli kasema dini zingine zifutwe basi kakosea sana. Kwanza hamna dini inayoanza na mamilioni ya wafuasi, wafuasi wanakuja na kuongezeka kutokana na imani na mafundisho ya dini hiyo. Pia katiba yetu haina dini, sasa kigezo gani kitatumika kufuta dini ?? Inabidi ajue kwamba maovu mengi na makubwa yamefanywa zaidi na wafuasi wa dini kubwa mbalimbali kuliko dini hizi ndogo anazozikataa.
     
  4. Waberoya

    Waberoya JF-Expert Member

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    Thanks Cynic.God bless you!

    Nasema kuwa demokrasia ya kweli inaanzia kwenye imani zetu na tunayoyaamini.

    Uwezo wa watu wengi kufikiri unaminywa na kuiga na kuabudu bila kufikiri.

    Waache watu wafanye watakavyo, kwani kitu gani kinawafanya waondoke huko waliko?

    If you can satsify human's soul and mind; what makes them to run??

    Huyo Gamanywa kawagawa wapentecost kwa misimamo yake juu ya ukimwi, kanisa katoliki ndio nisilisemee linatuhuma nyingi mno haziishi kila kukicha. Lets people dance as they wish, melody of faith is always on and tunes is so different!
     
  5. Augustine Moshi

    Augustine Moshi JF-Expert Member

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    Ni wazi anachosema ni hiki: Wako watu wanadanganya wao ni Kanisa, na kwa hivyo wasamehewe kodi. Hao serikali isiwape msamaha wa kodi.

    There are con men who couldn't care less about God, but want tax exemption. So, they start a "Church" for the specific purpose of cheating on taxes. Sasa Kama Baba Askofu anataka wathibitiwe kuna mbaya gani?
     
  6. Abdulhalim

    Abdulhalim JF-Expert Member

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    Mazee mi nadhani wewe ndiye unayestahili kujitazama vizuri na wala si Kilaini. Tatizo lenu wengi wenu mnatangulizaga chuki badala ya judgement na objectivity mnaposikia tu neno kanisa katoliki. Ktk large picture hoja aliyoitoa ni sahihi...ingawa inaweza kuwa ngumu kiutekelezaji lakini way forward kutasaidia kudhibiti ukwepaji kodi na wajanja wanaotumia jina la Kristu kujinufaisha.
     
  7. Abdulhalim

    Abdulhalim JF-Expert Member

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    Mzee wewe umesema, maana watu wengi hapa kama kawaida wanatanguliza chuki na reason baadaye.

    Mi nadhani ktk larger picture ilitakiwa kila dhehebu, kila kanisa , la kijijini, vitongojini au mijini yalitakiwa yaratibiwe na si tu haya mapya. Ili kuwasaidia waumini wa makanisa kutoingia mkenge, serikali ingeyashukia makanisa yote ya 'mfukoni' na si tu yale mapya hata ambayo tayari yana operate.
     
  8. Abdulhalim

    Abdulhalim JF-Expert Member

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    Mazee kuongoza kuagiza vifaa nje hailifanyi kanisa katoliki kuwa mkosaji mazee, hizo chuki zenu sizielewi zinakoanzia. Askofu Kilaini ametoa tu wito kwa serikali iangalie kama inaweza kufanya kitu kudhibiti ukwepaji kodi. Hajazungumzia dini ipi ni bora na ipi si bora, msipotoshe habari kwa makusudi.
     
  9. Abdulhalim

    Abdulhalim JF-Expert Member

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    Mazee sikubaliani na wewe, imani si demokrasia, na imani ni zawadi kutoka kwa Mungu ndio maana kila mtu ana ya kwake.

    Mazee huo ni mtazamo wako tu na haujauthibitisha kokote..na wala hujathibitisha pia kuwa wewe una uelewa makini eti kwa kuwa unajua unachokiabudu..Kwangu mimi unachokiabudu ni debatable achilia mbali unachokifiri. Hata hivyo sioni tatizo kwa mtu kuabudu chochote kila au kufikiria chochote kile ili mradi tu hawambughudhi mwingine na wala havunji sheria za Jamhuri ya Muungano wa Tanzania.

    Again chuki yako inakupelekea kudhani kuwa kila anayeanzisha kanisa ametoka kwa kanisa Katoliki au kwa Gamanywa. Siwezi kukusaidia kwa hili endelea kuamini unavyoona ni sahihi, lakini hata hivyo sijaona popote pale kwenye chanzo kuwa watu wnakatazwa kuhama kwenye madhehebu yao.

    Naona unajiweka mahala pa Mungu na kuanza kutoa hukumu..Watu wengi tunapojadili mijadala ya kidini ndio tunapoonesha true intelligence. Tuendelee kujadiliana tuone tunafikia wapi.
     
  10. M

    MathewMssw Member

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    Haya misamaha ndo hiyo imesharudishwa ya nini kuendelea kurumbana? Nafikiri kila mtu aamini anavyoamini, pia kutoka kanisa moja kwenda jingine ni uamuzi wa mtu mwenyewe wala mtu mwingine hana mamlaka ya kumuingilia. Achana na waumini 200 kuna makanisa yana waumini kuanzia 3 lakini wanaendelea kukua siku hadi siku hata watafika maelfu.
     
  11. Cynic

    Cynic JF-Expert Member

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    Nadhani Askofu alimaanisha alichosema. Uthibitisho ni jinsi alivyoelezea kwa njia/misisitizo tofauti tofauti (mara 3).

    Mbaya ni awkward measures he is suggesting. Njia ya kuzuia kuvuja kwa mapato ni nyeupe kabisa... misamaha ya kodi iangaliwe kwa makini kama alivyoandika Kwame.
     
  12. Cynic

    Cynic JF-Expert Member

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    Ushauri kama huo angeutoa mtu yeyote .. Kiongozi ya AIC, KKKT, Shehe, Mkulo, Lipumba, wewe, etc. bado ningekuwa na opinion kwamba ni wa ovyo na wa hatari. Nashangaa haya mambo ya chuki dhidi ya Kanisa Katoliki yanakujaje hapa. Angalia nilipoanzisha thread sikutaja Kanisa wala jina la Askofu! Tuangalie haya mambo kwa mapana mkubwa.
     
  13. K

    KipimaPembe JF-Expert Member

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    In one hand tunatetea uhuru wa kutoa maoni. In another hand tunakuwa watu wa kwanza kuyanyonga maoni ya watu wengine; mi nadhani hii si sahihi! Hayo yalikuwa maoni ya kilaini. Tuheshimu maoni yake hata kama hatukubaliani nayo. Ikiwa lazima tuyajadili kwa nia ya kupata muafaka, si kuonyesha jinsi mtoa maoni alivyokosea.

    Hizi jazba ninazoziona hapa ndo hata serikali huwa wanazitumia kuvishambulia vyombo vya habari au watoa maoni. Kwenye thread nyingine nimeona mahali spika Sitta akikanywa kwa kutishia chombo cha habari kilichoandika maoni fulani ambayo yeye hakubaliani nayo. Tuna matatizo ya kusikia kile tusichopenda? Hivi tunataka kila mtu akitoa maoni yawe ni yale tunayokubaliana nayo tu???

    Hayo ni maoni tu. Method kilaini hana uwezo wa kutunga sheria. Na hii haijawa sheria. Tumwachie Kilaini maoni yake na siye tutoe maoni mbadala badala ya kushambulia mtoa maoni kuwa ametoa maoni ya hatari na hovyo. Kwanza hii authority ya kujudge maoni ya hatari na hovyo tumeitoa wapi?

    Hii mie huwa inanishangaza sana. Tunaelekea kuwa na ugonjwa unao fanana. Ndo maana wengi tukiingia katika position of authority tunafanya yale yale tuliyokuwa tukilalamikia.

    Maoni ni maoni tu. Kukiwa na haja ya kuyajadili, tuyajadili kwa kuzingatia kuwa ni maoni ya mtu au taasisi moja tu. Ikiwa lengo letu ni kujenga jamii pana inayojari uhuru wa kutoa maoni basi tuwe wa kwanza kuheshimu uwezo wa wengine kutoa maoni. Wakitoa maoni tuyaone ni maoni tuu ikiwa ni lazima tutoe maoni mbadala kwa lengo la kuboresha.

    Nadhani tuna ugonjwa wa kutovumilia maoni. Na kama hili ndo tatizo letu, basi hata tusijiulize kwa nini mara nyingi serikali zetu zinaonekana kukosa uvumilivu. Waliomo serikalini ndio hawa hawa tunaoweza kujua maoni ya hovyo na hatari! Ni wazi tutafanya juhudi kuhakikisha maoni ya hovyo na hatari hayaonekani wala kusomwa au kusikika.

    Let's be fair. Let's be true to ourselves.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2009
  14. TIMING

    TIMING JF-Expert Member

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    Cynic, thanks for this one... lakini kama nilimuelewa vizuri Kilaini, he talked more than just tax evasion!! Kuna ukweli usiopingika siku hizi mtu unaambiwa kwamba katika mipango yako ya biashara, include kuanzisha kanisa maana makanisa yanalipa --- Nenda arush kwenye ngurumo za upako, kanisa la manabii wa mwisho, camp ya daudi, mtakataifu joshua, kanisa damu sijui ya nani etc. etc.

    Probably, his straight forward message is not acceptable to most of Tanzanians, but the message was loud and clear

    FYI, kuna tetesi za kuanzisha dhehebu la devils worshipers kama lile la lusaka near shentemba hapa maana yule jamaa wa zambia anamake kuliko kakobe na mzee wa ngurumo!! --- na hao pia watapata exemption
     
  15. Cynic

    Cynic JF-Expert Member

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    Kipimapembe thanks. Ila mimi naona kinachoendelea hapa ni utoaji wa maoni yanayotofautiana (i.e. ya kuunga mkono/kutofautiana na kilichosemwa) na siyo 'unyongaji wa maoni ya mtu'. The borderline between ''utoaji wa maoni'' na ''unyongaji wa maoni'' ni mwembamba sana - na mara nyingi mtu anapokuwa na maoni tofauti au kupingana maoni ya mtu aliyetangulia kusema anakuwa adjudged kwamba anayonga maoni ya mtu mwingine/siyo mvumilivu, n.k.

    And I tried to be fair & true hata nilipokuwa nachagua maneno ya kutumia (kwenye title ya thread na kwingineko). Kwa kuwa alisema ''serikali iache kuandikisha ovyo makanisa" - ndiyo maana nika'qoute' na kutumia neno Ovyo ktk title ya thread - nothing like authority ya kujudge
     
  16. K

    Kahinda JF-Expert Member

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    Kwa maana hiyo basi hatuna viongozi serikalini kwani hii misaada inatolewa kiholela tu hakuna utaratibu kwa nini uvunjwe?.
     
  17. Kaa la Moto

    Kaa la Moto JF-Expert Member

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    Basi ataje zipi ni dini kanjanja kama anazijua! nimesema tena na narudia tena kuwa hata RC wanaweza kuwa kanjanja.
    Sikiliza mkuu, hili la kukwepa kodi si la dhehebu fulani tu, linahusisha madhehebu mengi katika mapana yake na hata serikali inaelewa kila kitu wala si siri. Hata Mkullo hana haja ya kutajiwa maana anajua kila kitu. Hii aliyosema TBC ilikuwa ni utetezi tu ili tumuonee huruma kwa kuwaondolea hiyo exemption.
    Hivyo tusitoane macho mkuu. Hata sisi tumetoa comment juu ya comments za Kilaini simply kama yeye alivyotoa comments zake kwa makanjanja wengine.
    More? ninafahamu mapadre, wachungaji na wafanyakazi wa missions mbalimbali ambao magari yao yako registered kanisani lakini yanatumika privately. Need say more?
     
  18. Abdulhalim

    Abdulhalim JF-Expert Member

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    Ok mazee basi tukubaliane huna chuki.

    Kutotaja jina la skofu huku chini umeweka nukuu inayoonesha jina la kanisa na maaskofu manake ni nini? Tofauti yake ni nini?

    Ushauri alioutoa askofu ni kuhusu makanisa ambayo taarifa zake hazieleweki eleweki na yanaendeshwa kama kampuni za mfukoni. Oh..sasa kuongelea hili imeshakuwa ushauri wa hovyo na wa hatari..sasa kama husukumwi na chuki ni nini mazee? Anachosema hakina ukweli?
     
  19. Abdulhalim

    Abdulhalim JF-Expert Member

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    Kwanza hajazungumzia kuhusu dini, bali makanisa akimaanisha madhehebu.

    Pili sijaona neno kanjanja likiwa direct quoted kutoka kwa askofu Kilaini, hata kama angekuwa amelitaja neno kanjanja hakuna ubaya wowote. Ubaya ni uwepo wa makanisa kama hayo ya mfukoni yanayoendeshwa kienyeji na hayajulikani shughuli zake na mwisho wake kujishughulisha na shughuli binafsi kwa kisingizio cha mwamvuli wa kanisa. Askofu hakukukosea kulizungumzia hili.

    Tatu, umesema vyema kuwa kukwepa kodi si suala la dhehebu moja tu..unachoshindwa kuelewa ni kuwa kuna makanisa ktk larger scale na kuna watumishi wa kanisa ktk smaller scale. Ninachotaka kusema ni kuwa kwanza kitu cha kwanza kiwe kanisa lijulikane linafanya nini. Makanisa yakijulikana kiujumla then unaweza kwenda ngazi ya chini kujua watumishi wa huku chini wanafanya nini na kuwa-monitor. Alichopropose askofu is very same na ninachokizungumzia. Ukishaweka sawa mambo ya juu, unaweza sasa ukaweka misingi kuhusu ngazi za chini kwa maana ya udhibiti.
     
  20. M

    Magezi JF-Expert Member

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    Mimi naona kilaini anamaana hapa kwa sababu tuseme ukweli kakobe fedha za watu na dhahabu alikuwa anakusanya vya nini? Amesaidia wananchi mahali gani? Kama siyo kusomesha watoto wake marekani?

    Kuna vikanisa vingi tu vimeanzishwa kwa ajiri ya kukwepa kodi ikiwemo kanisa la mama rwakatare na wenzao. Siku hizi mtu anaibuka tu anaanzisha kikanisa kwenye jumba la makuti, haya yafutwe kama inawezekana.
     
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