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10 Years After: A shocker 40 years later!

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Siasa' started by Mzee Mwanakijiji, Mar 5, 2009.

  1. Mzee Mwanakijiji

    Mzee Mwanakijiji Platinum Member

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    My take:
    so what is the problem?
     
  2. Nyani Ngabu

    Nyani Ngabu Platinum Member

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    Miafrika Ndivyo Tulivyo!!
     
  3. Mzee Mwanakijiji

    Mzee Mwanakijiji Platinum Member

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    yawezekana tatizo letu haliko kwenye mifuko ya fedha, liko kwenye bongo zetu!
     
  4. Zakumi

    Zakumi JF-Expert Member

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    Mwanakijiji:

    Don't cherry pick what you want to say. Here are the facts 10 years later.

    In a broadcast in December 1981 to mark 20th anniversary of Tanzania' independence JKN admitted: " We are poorer now than we were in 1972."

    The following year, 1982, the annual level of foreign aids to Tanzania reached $600(almost 60% of the budget).

    Wako katika kusukuma gurudumu la maendeleo.
    Z10.
     
  5. Mzee Mwanakijiji

    Mzee Mwanakijiji Platinum Member

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    Zakumi hii ina maana 20 years of independence. Unaposema nina "cherry pick" ungeweza kuonesha kuwa alichosema Nyerere 10 years after independence nime kimisrepresent. Lakini unapokuja kuonesha what happened 10 years later unalazimisha tuhoji what happened?

    Ilikuwaje miaka 10 baada ya Uhuru ambapo tulikuwa hatutegemei sana misaada ya kigeni tuliweza kufanya mambo mengi (soma hiyo hotuba yenyewe) halafu miaka kumi mingine mambo yamebadilika? Katika nukuu yako mwenyewe unathibitisha kuwa 10 years earlier we were better which was my point.

    Kwa mtu yeyote anayejua historia ya dunia na Tanzania ndani ya miaka hiyo 10 uliyochagua wala hatapata shida kuelezea what happened. Lakini kile kilichotokea miaka hiyo hakiwezi kulinganishwa kwa kiasi chochote na kile kilichotokea miaka hii karibu thelathini iliyopita.

    Ina maana huoni kuwa tulifanya vizuri na tulikuwa katika mwelekeo mzuri miaka ile 10 ya mwanzo ya Uhuru?
     
  6. Wambandwa

    Wambandwa JF-Expert Member

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    'Wanasiasa wanaingilia mno wataalamu ktk kufanya maamuzi, matokeo yake mambo yanaharibika.

    Mpaka hapa tulipofikia bado hao hao waliokuwa ndani ya uongozi kwa miaka yote hiyo hawajagundua hilo; au wanaendelea kuwapo kwa maslahi yao ya kisiasa.
     
  7. Zakumi

    Zakumi JF-Expert Member

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    Mwanakijiji:

    Historia ya 1971-1981 unaweza kuilemba kukupa execuses unazotaka uzisikie. Lakini ukweli wa mambo unabakia kuwa internal factors zinachukua sehemu kubwa ya matatizo hayo.

    Na kama hizo internal factors tungeweza kuzifanyia kazi; tungekuwa mbali.
     
  8. Mzee Mwanakijiji

    Mzee Mwanakijiji Platinum Member

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    Naomba uzinyambulishe hizo internal factors ambazo tungeweza kuzifanyia kazi. Na uniambia kwa uhakika kuwa hakuna external factors zilichongia kuporomoka kwa uchumi wetu miaka hiyo ya sabini.
     
  9. M

    Mkandara Verified User

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    Zakumi,
    Mkuu tafadhali usitake kupotosha watu.. Hata Marekani mwaka 1982 were poor kuliko mwaka 1972 kwani walikuwa na madeni hadi kooni inategemea wewe umeelewa vipi usemi huo..tumia facts na lugha inayoeleweka..
     
  10. Companero

    Companero Platinum Member

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    Kuna mdau anasema hivi Kuhusu Mwalimu Nyerere:

    HE was the one that made Tz more dependent on aid than any other African country of his era and since.

    HE sought and received aid from all Bretton Woods Institutions with impunity , indebting us nation for many years to come.

    HE took part in a shameful deal to separate Biafra from the rest of Nigeria so that he could gain IMF support for all kinds of stupidity (largely corrupt activities) all in the name of Unity of the continent) Don't forget he was the architect and protector of the disfuntional OAU.

    HE was a personal friend of Robert McNamara, the Director of The World Bank who gave him billions of USD (at the last count 16 billion USD) all of which has filtered away and never been accounted for? .......

    And all Mwalimu had to do is ask rhetorical questions to distance himself from the mess and system and status quo that was funding and protecting him .

    The West loved Nyerere. .......How is it that the capitalist coiuntries and institutions loved the saviour of "African Socialiism" a concept and phrase actually conceived by Nkrumah. Was he really working for Africans or for the West???
     
  11. M

    Mkandara Verified User

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    Companero,
    Mkuu watasema sana lakini ukweli ni kwamba AID haina ubaya kama unajua unaifanyia nini.. Kama Nyerere alichukua mara 3 ya viongozi wa leo na akajenga miundombinu iliyopo, wakati hawa viongozi wote watatu wenye idea tofauti kwa miaka sawa na Nyerere ktk utawala wameshindwa hata kuongeza nguvu za Umeme, vyanzo vya maji. elimu bora (siku hizi kila shule inatumia vitabu vyake)..Afya bora, usafiri bora sijui hiyo mikopo tunayochukua leo inakwenda wapi..
    Serikali haizalishi tena isipokuwa kutunga policies iweje tunashindwa hata kuujenga uwanja wa JKN uwe wa kimatifa na wa kileo kulingana na wakati..toka nguo mitumba, ferry boat mitumba, ndege mitumba, generator mitumba na yote inayotokana na mikopo..Hakuna chanzo chochote kilichojengwa toka mwinyi hadi Kikwete labda hizi generator na daraja la Mkapa.. hakuna hata kimoja zaidi ya ile waliyoikuta..

    Hata ukitazama pale tulipofanikiwa kama Mawasiliano, mkuu wangu hakuna nchi inayoibiwa duniani kama Tanzania..Mitambo yote ni kuegesha yaani sio vyanzo ama ya kudumu kesho mkiwafukuza hawana noma kabisa wataondoka na furaha kubwa..Yaani mashirika ya mawasilino Tanzania yanatengeneza fedha kuliko migodi ya dhahabu au machimbo ya mafuta sema tu ni local monies..Hata Waarabu wenyewe wanatafuta uwekeshaji wa simu Tanzania..
     
  12. Zakumi

    Zakumi JF-Expert Member

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    Nimehamua kuja na hoja moja moja kuonyesha jinsi internal factors zilivyochangia. Kwanza ni vijiji vya ujamaa.

    Naomba soma kipande hiki kilichofanyiwa research na usiseme kuwa ninazua.

    The disruption caused by ‘villagisation' programme nearly led to catastrophe. Food production fell drastically, raising the spectre of widespread famine. Between 1974 and 1977 the deficit in recorded in cereals was more than 1 million tons. Drought compounded the problem. The shortfall was made up with imports of food, but the country's foreign exchange reserves were soon exhausted.

    In 1975 the government had to be rescued by grants, loans and special facilities arranged with the assistance of International Monetary Fund and the World Bank and by more that 200,000 tons of food aid.

    Far from helping Tanzania to become more self-reliant and to reduce its dependence on the international market economy, UJAMAA made it dependent for survival on foreign HANDOUTS.

    By 1979 some 90 per cent of peasantry had moved into UJAMAA villages; however, mere 5 per cent of agricultural output came from communal plots.

    Na haya yote yalitokea katika kipindi cha miaka minne tu toka atoe hotuba yake uliyoweka hapo kwenye utangulizi. Huku kama sio kuvurunda what's it?

    Wako katika ujenzi wa taifa

    Mwanamapinduzi
    Z10
     
  13. Zakumi

    Zakumi JF-Expert Member

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    Mkandara:

    Stop right there. We are talking about Tanzania. Don't spin the topic. Everything I put forward here is well written and researched, hard facts. You are the one who talk from his own experience and disregard the facts.
     
  14. Zakumi

    Zakumi JF-Expert Member

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    I know we talked about these long time ago. Ujamaa was a PONZI scheme at its best.

    In 1975, without any hard work, four in ten villages were provided with clean tap water, three in ten had clinics ..... etc etc

    These were remarkable achievements, but the question is where did we get the money or who funded these projects ?

    Viva Lobengula.
    Wako

    Za10
     
  15. Zakumi

    Zakumi JF-Expert Member

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    Mkuu usitake kulaumu sana. Nyerere aliweza kufanya mambo hayo kwa sababu alipewa nchi ikiwa masikini lakini haikuwa na madeni.

    Lakini yeye kawaachia wenzake madeni.
     
  16. M

    Mkandara Verified User

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    Zakumi,
    Alipewa nchi na nani? mkuu vipi lakini wewe ulitegemea nchi ambayo inatawaliwa na Queen wewe mmatumbi utayajua madeni yake wakati wewe mwenywe ndiye unaibiwa..
    Again ulichozungumzia pale juu kuhusiana na 1971 through 1982 ni somo la Uchumi..kipimo kinachotumika hakina Tanzania wala Marekani..kumbuka tu unemployment ya Marekani ilifikia asilinia 21, hajawahi tokea ktk kipindi chochote kile.. Uchumi wa dunia nzima mwaka 1981 hadi 84 ulisababisha nchi zote za Kijamaa kukimbia mfumo huo kama hivi leo 2009 Ubepari unavyohangaika. Ukitazama uchumi wa Marekani unaweaza sema hali ya leo ni mbaya kiuchumi kuliko mwaka 1995..Kwa hiyo nachozungumzia hapa ni kipimo chako unachotumia.
    Leo hii mkuu wangu sina kazi, kiuchumi hali yangu mbaya kuliko 1987 nilipokuwa nikifanya kibarua kwa dollar 5 kwa saa.. Hii haina maana maisha yangu ndi yameharibika kinoma..Re
     
  17. Zakumi

    Zakumi JF-Expert Member

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    Mkandara:

    Sijapindisha kitu katika thread hii. Nimesema kuwa kuna external and internal factors.

    External factors zinaweza kutupa sisi execuses hili tuondokane na waafrika ndio walivyo.

    Lakini internal factors zimechangia sana katika kuboronga kwetu. Hivyo suala la kuwa waMarekani walikuwa na matatizo linakubalika lakini historia unayotumia vilevile inatuonyesha walikuwa tayari kubadilisha mifumo ya utawala na kupambana na matatizo yao.

    Hata kama kusingekuwepo na external factors, mipango yote ya 1971-1981 were doomed to fail kwa sababu moja kubwa tu waTanzania hawakuwa source ya maendeleo yao.

    Huwezi kutumia pesa na kuomba omba na kukopa kujenga maendeleo bila ya wewe mwenyewe kuwa na shughuli za ku-sustain maendeleo hayo.



    Wako katika ujenzi wa taifa

    Z10
     
  18. M

    Mkandara Verified User

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    Zakumi,
    Mkuu wangu hatubishani isipokuwa tunaelimishana kwa faida ya wote wanaosoma hapa..
    Sijasema una spin, isipokuwa unapotosha kwa sababu unashindwa kuweka taarifa zako wazi..na hakuna sehemu nimezungumzia external wala internal factors.. hizi zipo kila nchi duniani iwe kwa maendeleo yao ama kuanguka kwao.. mimi sipo huko!

    Nachozungumza mimi ni hali ya uchumi Tanzania nyakati mbili na vipimo ulivyotumia sijasema sababu kwani binafsi naamini kabisa kwamba bila mikopo ama omba omba tusingekuwa na muindombinu iliyojengwa..Na mara zote ktk uchumi unapojenga miundombinu ni kutokana na malengo ya kuongeza uzalishaji baadaye sio wakati unapojenga iwe ndio kipimo cha mauzo..Ila una create ajira, misingi na vyanzo vya uzalishaji.

    Hata wewe mkuu wangu unapojenga nyumba (iwe guest house) pato au akiba yako haiwezi kuwa sawa na siku utakapo anza kupangisha nyumba hiyo..Ujenzi unaweza kukusukuma kuchukua mikopo na kuonekana omba omba lakini kwa mwenye kujua maana na soko la guesthouse atasema Zakumi ana akili kweli..
    Tatizo langu ni ktk kutazama matumizi ya mikopo tuliyochukua. Nyerere alichukua mikopo na akaifanyia kazi kujenga misingi na vyazo vya uzalishaji tofauti na mikopo inayochukuliwa leo kukidhi mahitaji yasiyokuwa ya lazima na ndio maana tuna matatizo ya Umeme, maji, Afya, Elimu, Usafiri, na Uzalishaji wenyewe kwa sababu tumeshindwa kuweka misingi bora kulingana na ongezeko la watu na mahitaji yetu...

    Nakuomba usome tena ile hotuba ya Mwalimu ambayo aliitoa baada ya Azimio la Arusha, nini malengo na misingi ya kukopa fedha kwani kukopa sio haramu ktk maendeleo ya Kiuchumi iwe kwa nchi ama mtu binafsi..
    Bill Gates alikopa akawa omba omba na kila mwaka mikopo ilizidi ukubwa kulingana na mahitaji ya shirika lake hadi siku alipoanza kuzalisha na kupeleka mali yake sokoni ndipo tumeona maendeleo yake..
    Binafsi naamini kabisa kwamba tuli fail kwa sababu ya mwongozo - SIASA ilokuwa ikituendesha pamoja na matatizo mengine ya nje.. ni somo kwetu lakini hatuwezi kujenga kambi ktk sababu zile kupindisha ukweli kwamba leo hii tunavuruga.. Obama amekabidhiwa nchi ina madeni ni jukumu lake kusoma alama na makosa yaliyopita kisiasa na Kiuchumi kuweza kusonga mbele lakini ni ujinga kutumia kipimo cha failure za Bush kujaribu kujenga hoja kwa nini atashindwa kufanikiwa..
    Kiongozi bora ni yulke anayetazama beyond failure zilizopita na kuahidi wananchi kuwatoa ktk matatizo hayo na hata kuboresha nguzo za uchumi kwa kuweka misingi bora zaidi siyo kutumia matatizo yaliyopita kuonyesha udhaifu unaotokea ktk Utawala wake..
     
  19. Zakumi

    Zakumi JF-Expert Member

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    Mkandara:

    Nachoona wewe juhudi zako zote sio kuelimishana bali ku-uneducate me. Nimeulizwa katika thread hii na Mwanakijiji kutoa sababu za ndani zilizotufanya kuboronga.

    Nimeleta hoja ya vijiji vya ujamaa kama sababu moja ya kuboronga. Na naona hakuna mtu yoyote aliyetia mguu huko na sasa unaniambia nikasome Azimio la Arusha, another Ponzi scheme.

    Kama kiongozi bora ni yule anayetazama beyond failure zilizopita na kuahidi wananchi kuwatoa ktk matatizo hayo na hata kuboresha nguzo za uchumi kwa kuweka misingi bora zaidi siyo kutumia matatizo yaliyopita kuonyesha udhaifu unaotokea ktk utawala wake basi TANZANIA HAIJAWAHI KUPATA KIONGOZI HUYO. Kama aliwahi kutokea PLEASE ENLIGHT ME.
     
  20. M

    Mkandara Verified User

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    Zakumi,
    Kwa hiyo unafikiri Mkoloni aliacha misingi Bora!
     
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