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    1. W. J. Malecela's Avatar
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      Default Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      Well, heshima mbele sana JF,

      - Ninaomba kusema tena na tena, we were Dead wrong na idea za Azimio La Arusha, infact ndilo limetufikisha hapa tulipo yaani tumekwama hili taifa, hatujui tunakokwenda wala tulikotoka. Halafu wanatokea wasomi wanaodai eti turudi kwenye Azimio, hilo Azimio limetushinda mwanzoni kwa nini kuna wanaoamini tutaliweza sasa?

      - Recently, nimeona wale wengi walioachwa kwenye uongozi wa juu yaani kwenye mlo, wakililia Azimio, halafu ninachukizwa sana ninapoona media inawapa free lunch hawa waliokosa mlo, sijawahi kuwasikia wakisema Azimio liliwahi kumfunga kiongozi gani wa juu mwizi, sijawasikia wakisema Azimio lilifanya nini cha maaana mpaka wanalilia!

      - Mwalimu, yes was the greatest ever, lakini Mwalimu alikuwa na mapungufu makubwa mawili, hakujua;- !. Uchumi 2. Sheria, hivi vitu viwili Mwalimu simply hakuvijua kama alivijiua basi hakuvitilia maanani, na ndivyo vinavyolitafuna taifa letu sasa akiwa hayupo!

      - WA-TANZANIA, KAMA TUNATAKA KUSONGA MBELE NA KIJIREKEBISHA TUACHANE NA MANENO YA AZIMIO LA ARUSHA, KWA SABABU NDILO HASA LIMETURUDISHA NYUMA SANA, LISIRUDI, LIENDE ZAKE, NA TUSILIJADILI MAANA NI SHETANI LILILOTURUDISHA NYUMA SANA, SASA TWENDE MBELE NA UBEPARI NA UTAWALA UNAOHESHIMU SHERIA NDIO THE BEST WAY MBELE!

      RESPECT PEOPLE!

      Mr. Willie @DSM City!


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      Quote By Azimio Jipya View Post
      HITIMISHO









      Najua mjadala ni mrefu!

      Summaries zitatusadia kwani finally we have to postulate AZIMIO LA ARUSHA in a way it fits our modem times and We wish the other side do the same come out with something which YOU think can substitute/compliment the New Azimio!

      We have had this discussion when it was Jambo Forums and many more times in Jamii forums, this time We have to produce working document, not mare discussion ... YES We have mjadala kwa Katiba Mpya and here we are starting Mjada kwa Azimio la Arusha JIPYA!!
      Njema sana! Hata mimi nilifikiria hayo! Si vizuri kujadili tu na kuyaacha, hali tunajua kabsa hakuna wa kuyasimamia!
      Tuafikiane, tuweke maazimio na tule kiapo cha kuyaishi!
      Hivi kuna utaratibu wowote wa kukutana kwa wanajamvi? Nafikiri wenye imani moja, wameshakuwa wamoja tayari, hawawezi kujifichiana, ni muhimu kwa kuwa ni kwa maslahi ya umma! "TUFANYE JAMBO NADHANI, TUNAWEZA"
      Mungu wetu anaita!
      Last edited by JingalaFalsafa; 11th May 2012 at 10:35.
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    3. DAR si LAMU's Avatar
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      Default Re: Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      Quote By kobello View Post
      Wrong!!!!!!! Kwa mfano, falsafa ya nguvu ya umma na itikadi ya mlengo wa kati. Nguvu ya umma is not a philosophy!!, you have to explain to us people's power in what? How are you going to invest power to the people? Under what philosophy and how did you come up with such a philosophy? Ndiyo maana nasema CDM huwa hawaeleweki unless uwe si mtu makini.
      Kobello,

      ...Hawaeleki kwa nani? Unajua, wasomi wana complications kibao, kila kitu lazima ki fit category au definition fulani. Well, in reality not always.

      ...Let me be clear here. I don't believe in cdm -i mean, seriously- and for that case even ccm, but, baniani mbaya kiatu chake dawa. But, we will have to see, if ppls power will become a philosophy. I doubt it may, not b'se of cdm, but b'se of the current wave of change around the world -been influenced by the youth and some informed elders- taking into account the likes of "the arab spring" and the "occupy" movements.
      Dar na Lamu yote miji ya pwani, lakini haifanani!

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      Default Re: Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      Quote By Zakumi View Post
      Have you lived there? I lived in Sweden some years ago, and I can tell you that they pay a hell of taxes. In addition, they are very liberal. For example, the prime minister of Sweden can't impose his will upon majority because he or she is educated. They understand human rights and freedom to choose.
      ...Isn't that great!
      Dar na Lamu yote miji ya pwani, lakini haifanani!

    5. Kobello's Avatar
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      Default Re: Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      Quote By DAR si LAMU View Post
      Kobello,

      ...Hawaeleki kwa nani? Unajua, wasomi wana complications kibao, kila kitu lazima ki fit category au definition fulani. Well, in reality not always.

      ...Let me be clear here. I don't believe in cdm -i mean, seriously- and for that case even ccm, but, baniani mbaya kiatu chake dawa. But, we will have to see, if ppls power will become a philosophy. I doubt it may, not b'se of cdm, but b'se of the current wave of change around the world -been influenced by the youth and some informed elders- taking into account the likes of "the arab spring" and the "occupy" movements.
      People's power can never be achieved through a centist ideology. Peoples power can be achieved by a socialist ideology.
      Arab spring and occupy movements are people-driven movements, they are not party-based.
      Mkandara and NasDaz like this.
      Keeping quiet is a war crime.

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      Default Re: Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      Quote By Zakumi View Post
      The political party that has dominated the Swedish politics is a socialist party, but the country itself isn't.
      ...Dead wrong (Lissu, 2011). How can a "not socialist citizenry" elect into office a socialist one?
      Dar na Lamu yote miji ya pwani, lakini haifanani!

    7. Kobello's Avatar
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      Default Re: Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      Quote By eric cartman View Post
      Kobello embu jisome kwanza mwenyewe, kabla ya jibu langu maana nyie washabiki wa hili AA mmekazana na kuwaambia wenzenu hawalifahamu halafu wenyewe kila saa mnaji-contradict na implemention za AA. Chini hapa mnasema misingi ilikuwa ni kujikomboa na soko la dunia.
      Naona kidhungu kinapiga chenga kidogo!
      "Navigate" Means going into/ through something or direction. Yaani kuwa kwenye global global economic and political arena.


      Quote By eric cartman View Post
      Halafu hapa tena unasema (tatizo kubwa) ni hao hao wasimamizi wa soko la dunia waliwatema, mkuu mi naanza kuona hili AA kwako lipo kiimani zaidi kuliko ukweli wenyewe kwenye implemention. Maana ni kitu ambacho ni impossible kwenye dunia ya sasa, kufanya economical activities bila ya external trade.


      Maana amna hata sababu za kwenda kuchambua the challenges of production efficiency kwenye hili Azimio Uchwara, hili kuweza kuja kuelezana matatizo ya mistari ya kununua bidhaa na upungufu wa bidhaa yalipoanzia na huko ndio mimi sikupendi kabisa kuhusu hili Azimio.

      Inabidi watetezi sasa mje na ubishi imara lakini si hizi hadithi za maandishi embu mjadala ueleke kisayansi na si haya mambo ya utu.
      That's been known from day one, ila kutokana na blocks za kisiasa, kuna mataifa yalikuwa yanabania trade between them na sisi. Hii hata Zimbabwe inafanyiwa hivohivyo.
      Keeping quiet is a war crime.

    8. DAR si LAMU's Avatar
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      Default Re: Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      Quote By kobello View Post
      People's power can never be achieved through a centist ideology. Peoples power can be achieved by a socialist ideology.
      ...Kwahiyo, your argument is, cdm is a socialist lot. Not? Inaweza kuwa sahihi maana, unakumbuka Mh. Slaa alikuwa akiahidi mambo mengi ambayo ni socialist in nature? I would argue kwamba, waTanzania wengi -i've said this before- ni wa socialist.
      Arab spring and occupy movements are people-driven movements, they are not party-based.
      ...Is philosophy that much restricted? Hey, i'm just wondering!
      Dar na Lamu yote miji ya pwani, lakini haifanani!

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      Default Re: Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      Quote By Iron Lady View Post
      on bold is where you are wrong mkuu, in developed countries never started as liberals they are what they are today by working very hard and it was by force to work hard and is was national rule to work hard. there after it when the became liberals. so as we did though it was not succesful to us as it did to others you know the reasons and there are so many. to a country like ours liberalism and what you call choices are the most enermy of our development.people need to be controled so that later we all enjoy national cake. freedom,democracy , human rights and all things of their kind work better in developed countries not developing. in the name of freedom of choice people decide not work, not to protect national resources and do what they feel likedoing. taifa pasipo miongozo yenye nguvu limepotea,
      ...Seconded!
      Dar na Lamu yote miji ya pwani, lakini haifanani!

    10. Kobello's Avatar
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      Default Re: Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      Quote By DAR si LAMU View Post
      ...Is philosophy that much restricted? Hey, i'm just wondering!
      Nope! those movements had the goal of revolting against the status quo, not trying to put some kind of ideologogue in to power, two different things hommie!
      Keeping quiet is a war crime.

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      Default Re: Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      Quote By Zakumi View Post
      Simply put, the triumph of capitalism left Tanzania or for that matter many countries which has spent considerable amount of time denouncing the west unprepared. In Tanzania those who support Ujamaa have everything at their disposal such as school of thought and institutions. But they don’t have courage and guts. On other hand those who support the right (capitalism) don’t have school of thought, institutions, and ideas. They want to be part of something they don’t know.
      ...This is what brings me back to jf. Kudos!
      Dar na Lamu yote miji ya pwani, lakini haifanani!

    12. DAR si LAMU's Avatar
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      Default Re: Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      Quote By kobello View Post
      Nope! those movements had the goal of revolting against the status quo, not trying to put some kind of ideologogue in to power, two different things hommie!
      ...So, are you saying, philosophy = ideology? I know they are fighting the status quo, but, ni kitu gani kinazaa philosophy? sio vitu kama hivi?

      ...I doubt, the occupy movement is turning into some kind of an ideology, but, guided with some philosophical observations.
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      Dar na Lamu yote miji ya pwani, lakini haifanani!

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      Default Re: Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      Quote By DAR si LAMU View Post
      ...So, are you saying, philosophy = ideology? I know they are fighting the status quo, but, ni kitu gani kinazaa philosophy? sio vitu kama hivi?

      ...I doubt, the occupy movement is turning into some kind of an ideology, but, guided with some philosophical observations.
      You know, Africans can adopt a Marxist philosophy, or Indians and Nepalese people (some, of course) want to adopt a Maoist philosophy,or the French with a Nationalist Philosophy (Anti-immigration).Or we can come up with our own philosophy, like AD and the philosophy of African Socialism.
      So, a movement can be based on one philosophy, which creates ideology or can be from individuals of different philosophies but have one goal like They can be socialists and capitalists fighting against a Monarchy or Fascism.And after a democratic election, the faction with most vote can form the government, like the Muslim Brotherhood.You don't have to come up with your own philosophy, you can adopt a well known philosophy and just fine-tune it to fit your environment.
      Mkandara, Ogah and Azimio Jipya like this.
      Keeping quiet is a war crime.

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      Default Re: Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      Quote By kobello View Post
      You know, Africans can adopt a Marxist philosophy, or Indians and Nepalese people (some, of course) want to adopt a Maoist philosophy,or the French with a Nationalist Philosophy (Anti-immigration).Or we can come up with our own philosophy, like AD and the philosophy of African Socialism.
      So, a movement can be based on one philosophy, which creates ideology or can be from individuals of different philosophies but have one goal like They can be socialists and capitalists fighting against a Monarchy or Fascism.And after a democratic election, the faction with most vote can form the government, like the Muslim Brotherhood.You don't have to come up with your own philosophy, you can adopt a well known philosophy and just fine-tune it to fit your environment.
      - We tried in Azimio and failed miserably!

      William.

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      Default Re: Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      Quote By W. J. Malecela View Post
      - We tried in Azimio and failed miserably!

      William.
      Azimio never failed!!
      Ogah likes this.
      Keeping quiet is a war crime.

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      Default Re: Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      Quote By DAR si LAMU View Post
      ...Dead wrong (Lissu, 2011). How can a "not socialist citizenry" elect into office a socialist one?
      I am not dead wrong. Am I? In realpolitik, itís not an anomaly for non-socialists to elect a socialist government. This is particular true in Western European countries where political parties are rather coalitions representing arrays of issues. So we shouldnít view socialists in Sweden through the lens of Eastern Europe socialism or for that matter Ujamaa.

      Furthermore, we can describe winning and losing election process using a carrot and stick metaphor. When politicians or political parties perform better, voters reward them with a carrot. When they donít, voters use the stick to punish them. I believe this is the situation in Sweden. There the socialists have run the government successfully, and have been rewarded with a series of electoral carrots. Nevertheless, their victories donít mean that Sweden is a socialist country or socialists elsewhere can run their respective countries efficiently.

      Now with regard to Tanzania, the carrot and stick metaphor has been at work in recent years. Take for instance the ascendancy of CHADEMA. This ascendancy isnít based on ideology, but rather on the poor performance of CCM. Voters are punishing CCM and rewarding CHADEMA, but that doesnít mean they reject what CCM stand for or embrace CDM.

      Apart from what I have described above, there is another reason why people elect people who seem to have opposing ideas into offices. In many countries, majority of citizens arenít affiliated with any political parties or ideologies. As such, they are susceptible to political baits and promises. Take for example blacks in the US. Many in black communities vote for particular candidates because their pastors have told them to do so. Similarly in Tanzania, power brokers in village used to people whom they should elect into office.
      If we permit feathers to be freely borrowed, who is to tell the peacock from the crow?

    17. DAR si LAMU's Avatar
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      Default Re: Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      Quote By Zakumi View Post
      I am not dead wrong. Am I? In realpolitik, itís not an anomaly for non-socialists to elect a socialist government. This is particular true in Western European countries where political parties are rather coalitions representing arrays of issues. So we shouldnít view socialists in Sweden through the lens of Eastern Europe socialism or for that matter Ujamaa.
      ...Socialists ninaoongelea hapa si wale wa USSR, Eastern Europe -ya enzi zile- na Cuba, bali ni "french kind", ambao kimsingi wana socialistic ideals lakini mfumo wao ni mchanganyiko wa ubepari na usoshalisti na uliberali, if you may.
      Furthermore, we can describe winning and losing election process using a carrot and stick metaphor. When politicians or political parties perform better, voters reward them with a carrot. When they donít, voters use the stick to punish them. I believe this is the situation in Sweden. There the socialists have run the government successfully, and have been rewarded with a series of electoral carrots. Nevertheless, their victories donít mean that Sweden is a socialist country or socialists elsewhere can run their respective countries efficiently.
      ...Nakubaliana na wewe. Kwa maana ya kwamba, kiukweli, wanadamu wengi au jamii nyingi kwa maana hiyo, ni socialistic in nature. Ndiyo maana hao jamaa wameweza kuendelea kuchaguliwa. Na ukiangalia sababu kuu ni kwamba, simply watu wameendelea kuwa na uhakika wa maisha mazuri chini ya uongozi wao.
      Now with regard to Tanzania, the carrot and stick metaphor has been at work in recent years. Take for instance the ascendancy of CHADEMA. This ascendancy isnít based on ideology, but rather on the poor performance of CCM. Voters are punishing CCM and rewarding CHADEMA, but that doesnít mean they reject what CCM stand for or embrace CDM.
      ...Unafikiri ni kwani nini ccm is been punished? Ni kwasababu imepotea na kutoka nje ya ideals zake kama chama cha wananchi -wakulima na wafanyakazi- na kuwa chama cha wachache wenye kujali maslahi binafsi, bila kujali maendeleo ya nchi kwa ujumla. Kumbuka, themes za cdm zimekuwa ni pro wananchi, what do you expect? Infact, ni socialist in nature.

      ...Nitarudia tena. Watanzania wengi ni wa socialist -si kwa maana ya ki soviet-, hivyo measures zozote mtu atakazotaka kuzichukua lazima ziwe na elements za welfare state. Hii ndio jamii tuliyonayo, tutake tusitake.

      ...Nadhani set up kama ya kifaransa au ya nchi za nordic inaweza kuzaa matunda. Ingawa ni lazima iwe localized.
      Apart from what I have described above, there is another reason why people elect people who seem to have opposing ideas into offices. In many countries, majority of citizens arenít affiliated with any political parties or ideologies. As such, they are susceptible to political baits and promises. Take for example blacks in the US. Many in black communities vote for particular candidates because their pastors have told them to do so. Similarly in Tanzania, power brokers in village used to people whom they should elect into office.
      ...Uelewa mdogo ndio tatizo. Katika nchi ambazo wananchi wana uelewa, issues ndio zina carry weight, kama ufaransa na immigration hivi sasa.
      Dar na Lamu yote miji ya pwani, lakini haifanani!

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      Default Re: Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      W. J. Malecela
      Mbona hata JK naye ana asua sua kuhakikisha serikali inajitoa kabisa 100% kwenye business.

      Quote By The citzen
      Govt has stake in Airtel Tanzania
      Monday, 16 April 2012 22:19
      By Daniel Msangya The Citizen Correspondent

      Dodoma. The government has acquired a 40 per cent stake in Airtel Tanzania Limited which had changed name from Zain Tanzania while Celtel Tanzania BV owns 60 per cent of all shares, the National Assembly was told here yesterday.

      According to the deputy minister for Communication, Science and Technology, Mr Charles Kitwanga, Celtel Tanzania BV is affiliated to Zain Africa BV which was acquired by Bharti Airtel International (Netherlands) in November 2010.

      He said the Bharti company did not purchase government invested shares instead it procured them from Celtel Tanzania BV one of the share holders in the Zain Tanzania well known as Zain Africa BV officially registered in the Netherlands.

      Mr Kitwange said when the right time comes, Tanzanians will be mobilised to buy shares under special guidelines adhering to laws and principles to allow peopleís participation in economic growth by purchasing shares in Airtel Tanzania.

      The deputy minister was responding to a question by Mr Said Amour Arfi (MP Mpanda Urban Ė Chadema) on why Tanzanians were not allowed to buy Airtel Tanzania shares through the Dar es Salaam Stock Exchange.
      Add this page to your favorite Social Bookmarking websites

      Chanzo

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      Default Re: Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      Nyerere on AA explained the objectives of AA as:- "To build a society in which all members have equal rights and opportunity in which all can live in peace with their neughbours without suffering or imposing injustice, being exploited or exploiting and in which all have gradually increasing basis level of material welfare before any induvidual lives in luxury"

      Nyerere could have been wrong on what you call his Philosophical concept. But..can someone point out where he was wrong? or is it methodological approach in question here.. I stand by him and maintains certainty positive to my knowledge on that statement as authoritative, true and obsolutely certain. If anyone is skeptic of such philosophy he/she has got to show me uncertainty of knowledge by proving otherwise. If not just tell me what should have been our objectives or rather I should say what is our objective today as a nation?..

      Reading posts and skepticism of AA..I still don't get it. Is it about the method and approaches Nyerere and TANU are subjected to skepticism simply because we never got richer (economically success) as expected by many. Do we cry out loud for Accountability in Leadership because there is no reasons for being poor? - Does success in Money make a man?. Oooh! my bad. Guess - Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
      Mchambuzi likes this.
      Exploration of reality

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      Default Re: Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      Quote By Zakumi View Post
      Now with regard to Tanzania, the carrot and stick metaphor has been at work in recent years. Take for instance the ascendancy of CHADEMA. This ascendancy isn’t based on ideology, but rather on the poor performance of CCM. Voters are punishing CCM and rewarding CHADEMA, but that doesn’t mean they reject what CCM stand for or embrace CDM.
      I agree. Kwa mtazamo wako, is this a threat or an opportunity for CDM?
      "In the future, it is possible that a Second Party will grow in Tanganyika, but in one sense such a growth would represent a failure by TANU."

      J.K Nyerere, 1965.

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      Default Re: Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

      Quote By DAR si LAMU View Post
      ...Socialists ninaoongelea hapa si wale wa USSR, Eastern Europe -ya enzi zile- na Cuba, bali ni "french kind", ambao kimsingi wana socialistic ideals lakini mfumo wao ni mchanganyiko wa ubepari na usoshalisti na uliberali, if you may. ...Nakubaliana na wewe. Kwa maana ya kwamba, kiukweli, wanadamu wengi au jamii nyingi kwa maana hiyo, ni socialistic in nature. Ndiyo maana hao jamaa wameweza kuendelea kuchaguliwa. Na ukiangalia sababu kuu ni kwamba, simply watu wameendelea kuwa na uhakika wa maisha mazuri chini ya uongozi wao. ...Unafikiri ni kwani nini ccm is been punished? Ni kwasababu imepotea na kutoka nje ya ideals zake kama chama cha wananchi -wakulima na wafanyakazi- na kuwa chama cha wachache wenye kujali maslahi binafsi, bila kujali maendeleo ya nchi kwa ujumla. Kumbuka, themes za cdm zimekuwa ni pro wananchi, what do you expect? Infact, ni socialist in nature.

      ...Nitarudia tena. Watanzania wengi ni wa socialist -si kwa maana ya ki soviet-, hivyo measures zozote mtu atakazotaka kuzichukua lazima ziwe na elements za welfare state. Hii ndio jamii tuliyonayo, tutake tusitake.

      ...Nadhani set up kama ya kifaransa au ya nchi za nordic inaweza kuzaa matunda. Ingawa ni lazima iwe localized. ...Uelewa mdogo ndio tatizo. Katika nchi ambazo wananchi wana uelewa, issues ndio zina carry weight, kama ufaransa na immigration hivi sasa.

      The French socialism is one of its kinds, and I am not sure if itís possible to implement it in a poor country like ours for one fundamental reason. Itís based on the concept of a welfare state which started in German and spread to other industrialized countries in Europe in 19 century. France and other countries there have run and continued to perfect this concept for almost 100 years. Itís become part of their traditions or social DNA. Even the rights (capitalists) have taken pains to preserve it. Therefore, regardless of whoís in power in France, there are always some sorts of safe nets that help to sooth social imbalance.

      Another point to make about French socialism is the love of intellectuals. This goes back to 19 century social discussions and movements that engulfed Western Europe. I am not sure if CCM or CDM have time for intellectual engagements. What I have read in recent campaigns indicates that personality cult is still the rule of the game.

      Now with regard to CCM, the party has been punished for many reasons. First, thereís a demographic change. The younger generation, probably below 35 years old, approaches life differently compared to the older generation. 25 years ago if a young man didnít have a job, the authority could easy force him to go back to his home village. Today, there are a good number of young people who have spent their entire lives in cities, and they demand formal employments, and nothing less. Unfortunately CCM didnít prepare the nation for this surge of new urbanites.

      Second, they failed to run efficiently few items that help to pacify social imbalance. We arenít a welfare state, but infrastructures such as railway systems, power generation and distribution, airports, and water supply make a huge difference when the government runs them efficiently. They donít bring profits, but they negate social and economic issues. As a matter of fact, they can help to keep the inflation down. Take for example railway system. If you have a good system to distribute consumer goods, it will be easy to control the transportation cost and the price. I donít know who decided to privatize the railway system.

      Whatís worse is the indiscipline form of cowboy capitalism the country tries to follow. It surprises me that every well to do Tanzanian wants to have a house full of everything: a generator, water supply pump, septic tank, TV dish, three cars, a servant, a door, and the list goes on and on. I believe we havenít grasped the true meaning of free enterprise. Capitalism doesnít mean we shouldnít share common responsibility. As a matter of fact it encourages it through taxation. You pay your tax, and the government uses the tax money to pay for other services on your behalf. For example, it pays the policeman who protects you, or run the railway system to control the price of consumer goods.

      Of course there are other reasons why CCM is being punished, but I will live it for other people to comment.
      W. J. Malecela likes this.
      If we permit feathers to be freely borrowed, who is to tell the peacock from the crow?

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