Topic: Vita vya Kagera: Nini chanzo? Kulikuwa na ulazima?

Wandugu, salam za mida hii.

Natafuta hotuba ya "SABABU TUNAYO, NIA TUNAYO NA UWEZO TUNAO."

Nataka kusikia hizo "sababu tunazo" na hoja ya Rais ya kwenda vitani kwa mapana na urefu, badala ya kumbukumbu ya mstari mmoja tuliyokaririshwa toka udogoni.

Nitangulize ahsante.

By Ms Judith

mpendwa,

issue sio "nje wapi", bali kama unataka tuongee zaidi, niPM no yako ya simu, july nitarudi daR NA NITAKUTAFUTA POPOTE ULIPO TUONGEE USI KWA USO! KAMA HUTOJALI LAKINI.

UBARIKIWE SANA.

GLORY TO GOD!

Na mimi msinisahau jamani kwenye hayo mazungumzo. Nitakutumia simu yangu.

By Jasusi

Na mimi msinisahau jamani kwenye hayo mazungumzo. Nitakutumia simu yangu.

mpendwa,

umesomeka vizuri kabisa mkuu!

ubarikiwe sana

Glory to God!

By Ms Judith

mpendwa,

issue sio "nje wapi", bali kama unataka tuongee zaidi, niPM no yako ya simu, july nitarudi daR NA NITAKUTAFUTA POPOTE ULIPO TUONGEE USI KWA USO! KAMA HUTOJALI LAKINI.

UBARIKIWE SANA.

GLORY TO GOD!

Nipo nabeba mabox huku USA River. Kama hupo huku kwa Obama niambie tu nitafunga safari sehemu yoyote ulipo.

By Jasusi

Na mimi msinisahau jamani kwenye hayo mazungumzo. Nitakutumia simu yangu.

Jasusi wewe si ulikuwa jikoni. Hizi zote unazifahamu vizuri sana.

By Zakumi

Jasusi wewe si ulikuwa jikoni. Hizi zote unazifahamu vizuri sana.

Zakumi,
Wakati wa mapambano na Amin sikuwepo nyumbani. Lakini nina ndugu walioshiriki katika vita hivyo kwa hiyo nilipata
first hand information. Ningekuwa nyumbani bila shaka na mimi ningekuwa mstari wa mbele.

By Zakumi

Nipo nabeba mabox huku USA River. Kama hupo huku kwa Obama niambie tu nitafunga safari sehemu yoyote ulipo.

Zakumi;
wacha hizo box la US limetulia halibebwi na mkono; sisi wa career cool - Karikoo tusemeje?

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

By Jasusi

Sikutaka kusema kitu kwenye mjadala huu kwa sababu nilishasema mengi hapo awali huu mjadala ulipojitokeza mara ya kwanza.
Kwa Nyerere kumpa hifadhi Obote was a given. Kwenye mkutano wa Commonwealth wa Singapore lengo la Heath lilikuwa ni kum-isolate Nyerere aonekane kama ndiye yuko out of step kwa kuishinikiza Uingereza isitishe kuiuzia silaha Afrika kusini. Obote alisimama kidete na Nyerere katika suala hili ikafikia wakati Heath akamtishia kuwa wengine hapa hawatarudi nyumbani kwao. Kumbe Uingereza ilishajua mipango iliyosukwa na intelligence yao na Israel kumpindua Obote. Ungekuwa wewe Nyerere katika hali kama hii kweli ungemsaliti rafiki yako? Obote kwanza alikimbilia Kenya, Waingereza wakamwambia Kenyatta asimpe hifadhi. Ungekuwa wewe Nyerere ungefanya nini? Waberoya, kuna wakati nashindwa kukuelewa kabisa!

hata mimi huyu jamaa mara nyingi sielewagi misimamo yake,haeleweki anasimamia wapi

huko tunakoelekea WAISLAMU wataanza kuwatete MASHOGA wenye majina ya kiislamu kwa sababu tu ya dini yao. Very soon wait and you will see.

By Saint Ivuga

huko tunakoelekea WAISLAMU wataanza kuwatete MASHOGA wenye majina ya kiislamu kwa sababu tu ya dini yao. Very soon wait and you will see.

Documentary ya iddi amini ninayo ..aliwahi kumuandikia Nyerere barua na kumuambia kuwa angekuwa ni mwanamke(nyerere) angemuoa..nyerere hakujibu kitu..iddi akatuma wanajeshi wake kuvamia sehemu ya Tanganyika wale wanajeshi walivtorudi akawasifia na kuwapandisha vyeo akasema kuwa ataivamia daresalamu yote na kuimaliza..
Leo hii inasikitisha sana watu wanaweka udini kisa eti iddi amini alikuwa na mwislamu..sishangai mlikuwa mnamuabudu osama bil laden. Kila la kheri zenu ila ukweli na uongo lazima hujitenga..

By Jasusi

Zakumi,
Wakati wa mapambano na Amin sikuwepo nyumbani. Lakini nina ndugu walioshiriki katika vita hivyo kwa hiyo nilipata
first hand information. Ningekuwa nyumbani bila shaka na mimi ningekuwa mstari wa mbele.

Lakini unajua Babu Nyerere alikuwa master of propaganda? Watanzania wengi bado wanajua kuwa mwaka 1972 ni Iddi Amin alifanya uvamizi?

By chama

Zakumi;
wacha hizo box la US limetulia halibebwi na mkono; sisi wa career cool - Karikoo tusemeje?

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

Chama,

I think it's Career Corps (kôr). Box la USA River halina kutesa kwa sisi tuliokimbia umande.

By Zakumi

Lakini unajua Babu Nyerere alikuwa master of propaganda? Watanzania wengi bado wanajua kuwa mwaka 1972 ni Iddi Amin alifanya uvamizi?

Zakumi,
Haikuwa 1972. Ilikuwa August 1973. Alituma kadege kake kushambulia Mwanza lakini mabomu yakaangukia kisiwani
cha Nane nane na kuua wanyama wetu. Hukumbuki?

By Zakumi

Chama,

I think it's Career Corps (kôr). Box la USA River halina kutesa kwa sisi tuliokimbia umande.

Don`t put yourself down you sound much better, the way you hold your grounds shows that you have education; so forget that umande cr@p. Living in America itself is a world class education.

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

By JokaKuu

Chama,

..asante kwa michango yako.

..tatizo la NasDaz ni kwamba amekwama na hoja zake za mwaka 72 kabla ya mkataba wa amani wa Mogadishu.
JokaKuu,

Sijakwama mkuu wangu, lakini endapo unaamini kwamba nimekwama hapo basi ni kwavile tu naamini hapo ndipo chanzo cha yote.

By JokaKuu

..kuna maelezo kwamba baada ya mkataba wa Mogadishu hali ya mpaka wa Tanzania na Uganda ilikuwa shwari mpaka miaka 8 baadaye Amini alipotuvamia.

Nanukuu: "Beyond the Mogadishu Agreement, Nyerere and Amin met at the 1973 OAU summit in Addis Ababa and signed a pledge that Amin would stop demanding that Nyerere evict Obote from Tanzania. However, the “cold war” between Amin and Nyerere did not subside, for 1975 Nyerere refused to attend the OAU summit in Kampala, and waged a campaign against Amin’s election as the OAU Chairman."
Ukiangalia nukuu hiyo hapo juu, utagundua wazi kwamba hata baada ya Mkataba wa Amani bado hali hakuwa shwari kivile.Bila shaka hakuna ubishi kwamba hakuna vita duniani inayoanza from knowhere. Hivyo, ingawaje mpakani hali ilikuwa shwari, lakini akilini mwa Nyerere, Obote na Amin halaikuwa shwari! Ni akilini mwa mahasimu hawa ndimo mlimozaa vita ya mwaka 1978. By the way, ikiwa kweli Nyerere alikuwa na nia ya dhati ya Mkataba ule, sijui alikuwa na sababu gani za kuendelea kuwa na kinyongo na Amin!!Na kwavile umeshasema kwamba baada ya mkataba ule hali ilikuwa shwari, then bila shaka unachomaanisha ni kwamba pamoja na kwamba hali ilikuwa shwari lakini Nyerere hakutaka tu kuwa pamoja na Amin!!! Aidha, kususa kwa Nyerere kuwa pamoja na Amin kulianza chini ya wiki mbili tu tangu kusainiwa kwa makubaliano yale kwani October 21, 1972 Nyerere alisusa kuhudhuria sherehe za mapinduzi ya Somalia kwavile tu Amin angewepo kwenye sherehe hizo!! Si hivyo tu, tangu 1962, Somalia and Tanzania zilianzisha uhusiano wa kibalozi lakini uhusiano huo ukawa mbovu mara baada ya Makubaliano ya Amani kati ya Amin na Nyerere!! Haya sasa niambie wewe....kweli Nyerere alikuwa na nia ya dhati na makubaliano yale au aliamua tu kusaini kwa shingo upande ili asidhihirishe nia yake in public?!

By JokaKuu

....uthibitisho kwamba Nyerere alishaachana na mipango yake ya kumuondoa Amini ni udogo wa vikosi vya JWTZ vilivyokuwa mpakani na Uganda wakati Amini anatuvamia.

Huo hauwezi kuwa ni uthibitisho, labda ni kwavile hawakufahamu Amin angefanya wakati gani uvamizi wa kijeshi. Nukuu nyingine hii hapa: "Indicative of Nyerere’s restraint was his order closing Obote’s training camp at Handeni. Overt support for Ugandan exiles ended. But Nyerere “privately let it be known that anti-Amin activities could go on, discreetly and quitely." Nukuu hiyo inaonesha wazi kwambaa lengo la Nyerere na Swahibu wake Obote lilikuwa palepale ila ambacho alikifanya NYerere ni kuacha kum-support Obote kwa uwazi bila shaka alichelea kuonekana anavunja makubaliano ingawaje kimsingi tayari alishayapa kisogo makubaliano hayo!! Nukuu nyingine hii hapa: "Obote’s operations from 1972 to 1978 focused more on intelligence gathering and small covert operations designed to keep a very low profile." Nukuu hiyo inaonesha wazi kwamba kumbe hata baada ya makubaliano ya amani 1972, bado Obote aliendeleza "Operations" zake frm 1972to 1978 kabla ya vita. Na kwavile Obote alikuwa anahifadhiwa na kufadhiliwa Tanzania, basi sina shaka yoyote kwamba operations hizo zilikuwa na mkono wa Nyerere na hivyo kudhihirisha wazi madai yako ama si sahihi au hayana grounds!

By JokaKuu

...Pamoja na majeshi yake kuondolewa ktk ardhi ya Tanzania, Iddi Amini aliendelea kutushambulia kwa kutumia ndege na hakusitisha vitisho vyake kwamba atarudi na kuchukua ardhi ya Tanzania.
..Mazingira hayo hapo juu ndiyo yaliyopelekea Tanzania kuamua kumtoa madarakani Iddi Amini. Tangu tumuondoe Iddi Amini madarakani hakuna serikali ya Uganda ambayo imekuwa hostile to Tanzania.

Kwa hali ilivyokuwa hasa kwa kuzingatia nukuu nilizotoa, utakuta kwamba Nyerere na Amin wote walikuwa tatizo lakini endapo nitaulizwa ni nani anayepaswa kubebeshwa lawama zaidi basi sitasita kusema kwamba ni Nyerere hasa kwavile alichukua role ya Principal War Architect.

NB: Nukuu zote hizo ni kutoka kwenye andiko ambalo Mzee Mwanakijiji na Chama wanalikubali. And, as far as you're from the same boat then i've no doubt kwamba hata wewe na Jasusi mnalikubali andiko hilo: The Tanzanian Invations Of Uganda: A Just War?

By Jasusi

Zakumi,
Haikuwa 1972. Ilikuwa August 1973. Alituma kadege kake kushambulia Mwanza lakini mabomu yakaangukia kisiwani
cha Nane nane na kuua wanyama wetu. Hukumbuki?

My sources show 1972, wakati akiwa na program ya kuwafukuza waAsia, Obote na Nyerere walifanya mipango ya kupeleka vikosi vya wafuasi wa Obote kuvamia Uganda. Walivamia lakini kutokana na bogus information ambazo zilikusanywa na Tanzania Intelligence service kwa kusaidiwa na Museveni tulipigwa vibaya. Na hapo uhasama ndipo ulipoanza.

Katika uchambuzi wa sources zangu, kuna patterns ambazo Nyerere alizionyesha katika kumsaidia Obote na katika masuala mengine ya uongozi wake. Nyerere aliwaamini sana watu kutokana na yale waliyomwonyesha.

Obote alikuwa na sauti kubwa katika mambo ya OAU na ukombozi. Hii ilifanya Nyerere kumwani sana Obote. Lakini ndani ya Uganda, Obote hakuwa pragmatic. Alitumia sana u-dikteta kwenye sera zake.

Nyerere alikuja kumjua Obote vizuri baada ya Obote kurudi tena madarakani kwa mara ya pili. Na alipopinduliwa hakutaka tena kumsikiliza. Hapa chini ni maneno ya Obote baada ya kupinduliwa.

My first plan was to contact my friend, [President Julius] Nyerere. I called his home in Musasani, Dar es Salaam and he was not there. I called State House, they said he was not there. I asked his staff to ask him to call me in Nairobi. He did not! I have never heard from him since.

I felt betrayed by my friend Nyerere because he abandoned me.

Then I contacted President [Kenneth] Kaunda [of Zambia] who told me to wait; he was going to send me his ambassador. The ambassador came that same evening to Kitili Mwendwa’s home and I asked for asylum verbally and then the High commissioner asked me to put it in a short letter, which I did. Kaunda first sent word that the aircraft was coming. The aircraft arrived and we left for Lusaka, about 100 people.

By FirstLady1

Watanzania Fulani ni kina nani hao?

I don't remember their identities. However, when I was attending national service, our political commissar who was a lieutenant colonel told us that some Tanzanians corraborated with Iddi Amin's forces. Unfortunately, i didn't take national service training seriously. I was one of those guys who went there just to breadth the good air, and come back untrained. So I don't remember the details.

By Zakumi

My sources show 1972, wakati akiwa na program ya kuwafukuza waAsia, Obote na Nyerere walifanya mipango ya kupeleka vikosi vya wafuasi wa Obote kuvamia Uganda. Walivamia lakini kutokana na bogus information ambazo zilikusanywa na Tanzania Intelligence service kwa kusaidiwa na Museveni tulipigwa vibaya. Na hapo uhasama ndipo ulipoanza.

Katika uchambuzi wa sources zangu, kuna patterns ambazo Nyerere alizionyesha katika kumsaidia Obote na katika masuala mengine ya uongozi wake. Nyerere aliwaamini sana watu kutokana na yale waliyomwonyesha.

Obote alikuwa na sauti kubwa katika mambo ya OAU na ukombozi. Hii ilifanya Nyerere kumwani sana Obote. Lakini ndani ya Uganda, Obote hakuwa pragmatic. Alitumia sana u-dikteta kwenye sera zake.

Nyerere alikuja kumjua Obote vizuri baada ya Obote kurudi tena madarakani kwa mara ya pili. Na alipopinduliwa hakutaka tena kumsikiliza. Hapa chini ni maneno ya Obote baada ya kupinduliwa.

Zakumi,
Haikuwa 1972. Ninakumbuka kwa sababu July-August nilikuwa Musoma na nilishangaa jinsi marafiki zangu pale walivyokuwa wanamshabikia Amin kwa sababu amewafukuza Wahindi. A few weeks later, baada ya Amin kushambulia kisiwa cha Nane Nane niliwaandikia baadhi ya marafiki kuwauliza kulikoni? Hapo ndipo wakasema Amin kumbe ni mshenzi.
Actually kuhusu uvamizi wa 1972 and what went wrong, Museveni ameueleza vizuri katika kitabu chake " Sowing the Mustard Seed." Na kwa sababu wewe unapenda kusoma, nakushauri ukitafute kitabu hicho.

NasDas,

Kumwita Mwl. Nyerere ni Principle architect wa vita vya Kager si sahihi lakini kwa vile una uhuru wa kutoa mawazo ni haki yako; tumeshakueleza haionyeshi mahala popote pale kuwa Tanzania ilivunja makubaliano ya amani tuliyosaini Somalia; utafiti unakueleza wazi kuwa baada ya Idd Amin kukabiliwa na uasi wa wanajeshi wake aliamua kuivamia Tanzania ili wanajeshi wake wapate shughuli ya kufanya; hata yeye hakuwa nasababu hata moja ya kuivamia Tanzania; kwasababu uvamizi wake hauonyeshi kwamba alikuwa anavitafuta vikosi vya waasi wa Uganda vilivyopo Tanzania; nashindwa kuelewa kwanini umechagua kukubali baadhi ya vipengele na kufumbia macho vingine; upinzani dhidi ya Amin ulikuwa mkubwa ndani ya Uganda na ndio sababu alikuwa akiiuwa raia zake hadharani; kama Amin asiingeivamia Tanzania ni vita ile isingetokea, Nyerere hakuwa na sababu ya kupeleka askari wetu Uganda; For Tanzania Kagera war was not just war; we had legitimate reasons to fight that war.

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

By Jasusi

Zakumi,
Haikuwa 1972. Ninakumbuka kwa sababu July-August nilikuwa Musoma na nilishangaa jinsi marafiki zangu pale walivyokuwa wanamshabikia Amin kwa sababu amewafukuza Wahindi. A few weeks later, baada ya Amin kushambulia kisiwa cha Nane Nane niliwaandikia baadhi ya marafiki kuwauliza kulikoni? Hapo ndipo wakasema Amin kumbe ni mshenzi.
Actually kuhusu uvamizi wa 1972 and what went wrong, Museveni ameueleza vizuri katika kitabu chake " Sowing the Mustard Seed." Na kwa sababu wewe unapenda kusoma, nakushauri ukitafute kitabu hicho.

Jasusi,

That's why I don't trust my memories anymore. If you search the web or google when Amin expelled Asians from Uganda, to your surprise you will find out it was August 4, 1972.

Upon hearing that Amin is going to expel Asians, Nyerere told Obote that the time was ripe to invade Uganda. So using bogus information from Museveni and Tanzanian Intelligence sources, we decided to attack Uganda. Nevertheless, the Amin's forces were too strong, and our military escapade there ended in debacle and humiliation.

The government didn't tell the Tanzanian people the truth. It potrayed the retaliation of Uganda's forces as a provocotive attack on our soil. Sadly, this is what many Tanzanians know about the war of 1972.

Now concerning Museveni's book, i haven't read it. However, various sources indicate that he provided false information which exaggerated the number of opposition solders who were ready to go to war in 1972. If I have time, I will read it.

By chama

NasDas
Kumwita Mwl. Nyerere ni Principle architect wa vita vya Kager si sahihi lakini kwa vile una uhuru wa kutoa mawazo ni haki yako; tumeshakueleza haionyeshi mahala popote pale kuwa Tanzania ilivunja makubaliano ya amani tuliyosaini Somalia; utafiti unakueleza wazi kuwa baada ya Idd Amin kukabiliwa na uasi wa wanajeshi wake aliamua kuivamia Tanzania ili wanajeshi wake wapate shughuli ya kufanya; hata yeye hakuwa nasababu hata moja ya kuivamia Tanzania; kwasababu uvamizi wake hauonyeshi kwamba alikuwa anavitafuta vikosi vya waasi wa Uganda vilivyopo Tanzania; nashindwa kuelewa kwanini umechagua kukubali baadhi ya vipengele na kufumbia macho vingine; upinzani dhidi ya Amin ulikuwa mkubwa ndani ya Uganda na ndio sababu alikuwa akiiuwa raia zake hadharani; kama Amin asiingeivamia Tanzania ni vita ile isingetokea, Nyerere hakuwa na sababu ya kupeleka askari wetu Uganda; For Tanzania Kagera war was not just war; we had legitimate reasons to fight that war.

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

Chama,

Personally, I won't say he was the architect. But it distub me to hear that Nyerere was excited when Amin attack Tanzania in 1978. It seems to me he had been waiting for that moment to happen so he could teach Amin a lesson.

I remember the speech Nyerere made in 1978. His tone was somber and conveyed a sense of urgency. Everybody who listened to that speech was so moved by it. However, after reading what Obote had to say about the war, I feel that to some extent all African leaders were out of touch with their own people.

In November 1978, I was in Lusaka where I had come to visit my friend President Kenneth Kaunda and I was staying at State House. Then I heard on BBC that Amin had attacked Kagera region in Northern Tanzania and annexed it to Uganda.
Immediately after that, Nyerere rang me. “Milton,” Nyerere said with excitement in his voice, “this is what we have been waiting for. Please come back.” I said, “I am a guest here, I cannot just leave.” Then Nyerere said, “I have spoken to Kenneth and he is going to arrange for you to come back.” However, it took about a week before President Kaunda found an aircraft for me.